Video Request: Dec. 19 Arizona-UTEP Traveling???
 

Not sure if the video gurus are able to secure clips from FOX 1 but it sure would be great to take a look at three potential travel plays. I describe them as potential as all three were allowed but they looked like traveling to me.

I am currently struggling when a player driving to the basket who then plants a foot (which to me is his pivot foot), and then spins away from the defender and swings that foot around and uses it to propel himself into a jump shot.

The plays occurred at:

#32 white 11:32 left in first half

#5 blue 8:53 left in first half

#5 blue 19:31 left in second half

Thanks for any help any one can provide.

1. This move is used all the time.

2. It is a travel.

3. It almost never gets called.


I called it in my BV game this week and the coaches on the bench reacted violently. Hard to blame them. They see the same move on tv so often without a whistle.

Here are the requested plays:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/wBY1bzK9plE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

all three were travels, that seldom get calls at either the college or high school level.

Yup.

It's odd to me that this one has become like the "2" step play on drives to the hole. Something illegal but accepted. I don't think the spin move is as difficult to see as the drive, as far as when the ball is gathered.

I think it would easy to "POE" this play back in line with the rules, if those in charge wanted to.

It was a POE several years ago. More than once, I think. It ain't working.

Just like the "automatic" hand checks. I turn on the TV and see it being called RSBQ-style.

Agree Zona, those are travels by the book, but for some reason they are allowed. If that move is made quickly I can see allowing it since the end of the dribble is tough to decipher, but all three of those look pretty obvious. In my high school games those are travels.

All 3 were horrible travels that give the offense a huge advantage and should be called regardless of level. I called one like this just last night in a game and got no lip from anyone.

I hear ya about the horrible travel but I don't think they got a huge advantage from these. In each video they spin, twirl, and pirouette into worse offensive positions than they were before, causing them to take extremely difficult contested shots.

first two just looked like good spin moves to me. I'm not calling the travel on them. Third one though looked like travel.

None of these are close to being legal. For those who say: This is a travel, but it is not called at (whatever) level. Is this okay with you? Do you not call it either because you've been instructed not to? Or because nobody else does and you don't want to be the only one? Or what?


I call it when I see it and all of these in the video were very easy to see, in my opinion.

I don't know...spin moves like these have been around for a long time. They are unusual and when players do them I usually think it is a sign of skill and I rarely see travels called on these calls. When I slow the second one down I see it but I'm not positive the first one is a travel. I thought the third one was but now all I'm seeing is a good spin move, with the pivot foot established and he steps through with the other foot (and gets blocked:cool:)
I can see how you can argue that in the third video the earlier foot is the pivot and not the second one closer to the key but I'm good with the first and third not being called. In the second I think it is clear his pivot foot is set then comes down again.

Not saying they are or aren't travels, but considering a man that has worked the Final 4 multiple times over the past few years was the one on two of those plays, he must be doing a lot more right than wrong.

Yeah, they don't call it there, either.

No answers forthcoming to this question. It's like having a "funny" relative. Everybody knows it's a problem. Nobody wants to talk about it.

Problem? That is a little overblown. We are not going to get all travels, no matter how many ways you want to try to act like high school officials are so perfect on this violation.

Peace

BNR made the statement here that these were travels, but they are seldom called. He is not the first to put it like this. If something is a violation, but is "seldom called", that indicates that it is being intentionally ignored, as opposed to being frequently missed. But I have never heard an explanation why. I'm still not totally comfortable with the way we (don't) call 3 seconds, but that, as far as I'm concerned, is not even close to this.

He did not say they were intentionally ignored. Something that is rarely called can also be that way because it is hard to tell. We get the benefit of replay, open look and can look at it over and over to determine. An official on a game has one shot and has to not only see the pivot foot, determine when the violation actually took place. If you do not see it properly, it is not going to be called. I would rather miss a "technical" travel than call one that was not there at all.

And yes you have heard many explanations, you just ignore what you are being told. I know I have said this to you more than once.

Peace

Do you think it was hard to tell on any of these?


I, too, would rather miss one than call one that was wrong. But I would rather call one wrong than "miss" ten, and I think that ratio may be conservative.

Yes, it is in real time often.

Peace

I don't work that level but I frequently no-call these moves at the HS/AAU level. To answer your questions, yes that is okay with me. I have not received instruction on calling/not calling traveling, other than the PoE. Others do call these but many officials let them go as well. Like it or not a few rules (traveling, 3 seconds, carrying, etc.) have been suspended in favor of a more attractive brand of basketball for the viewer. To be frank, people don't want to see a "by the book" violation-filled basketball game, which had led to the increased use of advantage/disadvantage philosophy in the calling of these violations.

Not to say I agree with this move but I referee to the expectations of my supervisors.

This is the problem. We have a black and white rule, as opposed to varying judgment on whether or not to make a call. He lifted the pivot, then put it back down, but some choose to let it go to create "a more attractive brand of basketball for the viewer."


This creates inconsistency, which is our worst enemy as officials.

Call it...
 

I have a travel in all three video examples and call this any time I see it. If a pivot foot is established and it comes off the floor and is then put back down it is a travel. The dribbler can't pick up the ball, plant his right foot, spin onto his left foot, and then replant his right foot on the way to the basket (or any where else) when I'm on the whistle.

Now, if I am not sure he planted the first foot before clutching the ball then I can't call the violation - call it a miss if you want but if it is that close or I am not sure then I don't guess. I know refs who say anytime a player spins like this it should be assumed they traveled but that's not any better than those who choose to ignore it.

I do think I get more grief from coaches for calling it because so many do not. I agree with other posters that its a rule that beeds to be consistently enforced. I also know tat not everyone has the experience or ability to pick up on the smaller nuances of the game such as this which is why they do not see the travel when it occurs.

There were just a bulletin put out by the NCAA Men's side and John Adams showing several travels called. So travels are being called but once again, they are not easy to identify. And I could show you the same situation with HS officials. It has nothing to do with level.

Peace

All three in the video in this thread are very easy to identify. Do you disagree?

Rut often ignores direct questions.

Some people are truly obsessed about traveling. Shrug.

I have actually answered your question. But I think like a guy that goes to a strip club or the casino all the time, people like yourself are often obsessed over this issue.

Travels are missed every single game, by either having them called improperly or if we do not call them. We have isolated a few plays and you act like there is an epidemic. I did not see the entire game to even know what is or is a trend. And why I told you that I saw some calls on the NCAA video that showed travels. I wonder do you really watch basketball because I see travels called all the time. But like other a lot of plays we can go back and see if we know for sure if they were correct. It is like block-charge calls. If they were missed, they were missed, it is not a tragedy like you are making it to be.

Peace

Must have missed it. What was the answer?

I am obsessed with anything that is this easy to see that goes uncalled, for whatever reason, this often.

You miss a lot of things. But what else is new?

Peace

Not traveling apparently. :D

Like I said, no answer.

He is perfect on that rule I guess.

Peace

I gave you an answer originally. You choose to focus on something that is not the case. As usual you are obsessed over traveling and then act like you are so perfect at calling them, but everyone is "ignoring" them. They are missed like many things in life, get over it already.

Peace

This topic comes up every season...we discuss...agree, disagree...whatever. I'm in the camp that calls it when I see it but I'm often on an island. It's gotten to the point that I bring it up in pre-game and when I'm the crew chief (R), I'll tell my partners "I'm calling it when I see it". Sometimes they follow suit...other times...not so much. My wish is that the Fed would spend less time focusing on crap like leg sleeves and headband colors and come out with a definitive policy on the move. Legalize it or make it a POE like hand checking this year. Until that happens, I don't see anything changing at the HS level. Some guys call it, others ignore it. Inconsistency...and that just makes us all look bad.

I call traveling like any other violation. If I see it clearly, I call it. If I have to guess, I will not call it. Do I have games where I feel I miss them? I sure do. But I do not go around acting like because they are not called to my liking, I know better than everyone or ignore them. Heck in some cases I call them when no one agrees with me. But I describe exactly what I saw and do not call what I "think" happened. And these plays are not always easy and not easy when you are trying to focus on contact or plays where contact is part of the move. You might pass on something if you feel they did not do it on their own or the contact was a part of the play. And it is also hard when sometimes the ball leaves your view. I am more upset when I see no control by a ball handler but a travel is called. Those drive me crazy much more than if the pivot foot moved slightly.

Peace

I'm sure FED's policy is to call it when it's there.

It's easy to see when there's a video or three titled "look at the travels"; it's a lot harder during a game -- if you give the excuse "I missed the (elephant) foul because I was looking for the (potential / mouse) travel" you won't progress very far.

I don't see them as "get one or the other". The ones I call are HS level, slow, non-elegant, and obvious. I'd be happy if just those were called consistently. I don't see a sacrifice of an "elephant" foul happening for the sake of a sloppy spin...at least I haven't to this point.

Some calls are often about which took place first and why they took place. Sometimes travels happen because legal contact took place and the player just happened to lose their balance. Other times the contact happens because of the contact. And some travels happen right before contact. All judgment situations and all not as easy to see.

As stated, we were only looking for traveling on these videos, in a real game they happen and you have to get them. Not as easy to do.

Peace

Look, all three of these plays are a travel but the common thing that I see on all of them is that they are pretty much two official plays and very complex to officiate. All of them should have the lead watching the defense for contact and the trail or C watching the feet for travels. The second is complicated even more due to the fact that the lead is right in the middle of a rotation.

I can see why all three of these were missed. There is a whole lot of stuff going on that requires at least 2 officials to officiate these plays appropriately. I bet these are missed more often in HS than college due to the crew discipline and training to know that it is a two official play. I don't think in at least these instances the officials chose not to call it. I just think they were looking at other (appropriately) things.