The "running bobble"
 

A1 has the ball on the wing on a secondary break when the entry pass goes to A2 moving down the lane line. A2 bobbles it several times as he continues to take steps toward the basket, never gaining possession of it. Before he can gain possession, my partner hits his whistle and signals a travel. Is this any kind of violation? Is there any way this could be construed as a travel?

Can't Travel Without Possession ...
 

No.

No.

A player must be holding the ball (with one very rare exception) in order to travel. A player can't travel while dribbling, while tapping the ball, while fumbling it, or while trying to recover a loose ball.

If it is a true fumble then it's a no call. If you deem the player is purposely fumbling the ball then you can say there is control and call the travel.

A player can't travel if he/she isn't in control of the ball. And fumbling the ball, unless you judge it to be done intentionally, is not control.

Explain this please.

Like Amenred just said... "If you deem the player is purposely fumbling the ball then you can say there is control and call the travel."

Not a travel. You cannot travel unless you're holding the ball. You'll hear lots of screams, but there's nothing to call.

Ugly isn't a violation.

If you mean the player who jumps up in the air, has no place to go, then "accidentally" drops the ball, yeah. Other than that, I still don't see a travel call.

If he's purposefully "bobbling" the ball, you have a dribble that violates 4-15-2.

By rule, a fumble is an accidental act ...

4-21
A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball unintentionally drops or slips from a player's grasp.

Thank you for clearing that up.

Which is not a travel, which was my point.

Ok, illegal dribble, still a violation.

Do not even try that argument with me. Either A2 had gained control of the ball or he has not.

MTD, Sr.

Wouldn't an illegal dribble indicate that there was one dribble that ended? "A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of..."

In the OP the player never dribbled. So if the player intentionally batted the ball in the air (had control) and moved his pivot foot isn't this a travel?

The only way a bat = control is when it is a part of a dribble. If a rebound comes off and a player bats it into the air he may (hypothetically) do so an unlimited number of times and proceed from one end of the court to the other without violation.

this section would not apply unless it happened "during the dribble." if you pass it to me and i bobble it down the floor on purpose, never pushing or batting the ball to the floor, this section doesnt apply.

Do not even try that argument with me, it's a violation either way. :cool:

Again, see 4-15-2

It is NOT a violation either way. Either the player is bobbling, fumbling would be the better word to use to describe the situation, the ball or the player has player control; you cannot have both at the same time.

I am going back to bed now.

MTD, Sr.

I'm not saying you can have both at the same time, but there is gray area between a real fumble and controlled "fumble" or "tap" which equates to player control. If you want to pick nits and say "oh you can't use the word fumble to describe anything controlled" that's fine but let's focus on the bigger picture here of how to get the call right, not argue semantics.

I worked a 3 whistle game with my assignor the other night (I don't do much 3 man, so I felt like it was an audition) and he called a travel on a running bobble like this. I didn't feel it was a travel. I did NOT inform him that he was wrong.

This conversation reminds me of people who argue which signal to give at the table on a defensive foul. Not interesting and not important.

It's unlikely I'm initiating a conversation during the game if a partner calls a violation here unless it's in my primary.

There are lots of "gray areas" -- that's why they need officials.

While I'm not real big on semantics, on an official's forum, I think we should strive to use the proper terms -- and "controlled fumble" is an oxymoron.

Bob:

I agree. The point I have been trying to make is that either A1 is on control of the ball or he is not. We cannot have both at the same time.

MTD, Sr.

Sure it does. 1. It's an advantage not intended by the rules. 2. It's actually against the dribbling rule.

I'm sorry, i disagree completely. 4-15-2 says "during a dribble" --definition of dribble as you know says intentionally bat or push ball to floor….

for this section to apply i first have to bat or push ball to the floor. if, after that, i push it out in front of me and run and touch it again before it touches floor i have violated this section. in my example and the op a player started bobbling on receipt of a pass. he never started a dribble…the ball has never hit the floor. it simply cannot be "during a dribble" which is required before this section applies.

Is your point that this is really a travelling violation? Or that it's not a violation at all? Or, something else?

Just trying to understand.

my thoughts
1. the dribble rule does not begin to come into play in this example because the ball has not been pushed/batted etc to the floor--cannot be "during dribble." cannot be a violation under that rule.

2. if it's anything it would have to be a travel. the closest thing we have to it is the play where i pass the ball up and go run under an catch it. moving 5 feet etc. that is travel. in reality, in a live game, i don't think I'm going to see a player bobbling/tipping the ball in such a controlled manner that i am going to even consider travel. a player can intend to bat the ball but it might go 1 foot one time and 2 feet the next…moving left and right. just because he intends to bat/bobble the ball doesn't make me think anything is wrong. (oxymoron as you say)

3. in the hypothetical world--if you pass me the ball over my head and i tip it up--and then, because of tip drill nightmares, i start walking down the floor with arms raised tipping the ball 4 to 6 inches over my head--never catching it, then I'm going to think about travel. the player is never holding the ball so i can see not calling travel. however, he is moving from point A to point B similar to passing it to himself. as i said, i havnt seen yet and don't think i will see batting/tipping so controlled and for a period long enough to make me think travel.

I see what you're saying. I see this is a some sort of loophole hybrid situation. If the player was holding it first and threw it in the air only to start tapping it upwards, you'd call a travel based on the case play. This, however, used to be considered an illegal air dribble.
If the player was in the middle of a dribble and started doing it, you'd have an illegal dribble.

The rules clearly state that we aren't to let players take advantage of the rules to gain an unintended advantage, and I think this would fall in that category (think of a post player who is able to move this way without the shorter opponents being able to touch the ball).

Whether you call it a travel or an illegal dribble doesn't matter, IMO. It's a violation.

There is some case play where the ruling used to be DD, then was switched to Travelling, then back to DD (or the other way round).

Same idea here.

This can't in any way be considered a fumble because he threw it into the air, as opposed to an "accidental loss of control."

The OP isn't a fumble either because the player was never holding the ball.

The word "fumble" is irrelevant.

NFHS history lesson: the air dribble = deliberately batting the ball into the air repeatedly while moving down the court.

Adam has been correct throughout this thread. The BigCat should listen to him.

I've posted about the "air dribble" on this forum before. It was removed back in the 80s, I believe. Consult the NFHS Handbook for the exact year.

At the present time a dribble must be pushed to the floor before the player may touch the ball again. This is how the NFHS made the air dribble illegal. If the ball is not permitted to strike the floor, then the action has not met the definition of a dribble and is BY DEFINITION an illegal dribble. This action is not a travel.

The Case Play mentioned by Bob is 4.15.4 Sit D. Notice that it is back in the section entitled "Dribble - Legal and Illegal Movement."

That case play starts with the player already dribbling and then hitting it again--obvious illegal dribble. Adam and I (and Bob) were discussing the OP where the ball never hit the floor. i was contending that by the dribble definition and when it says it starts in book that if the ball didn't hit the floor at least once it was never a dribble and thus couldn't be "during a dribble" as required in 4-15-2.

Longhorn then shifted the thred and i figured it out…and acknowledged that this OP was likely an illegal dribble as Adam originally said. i came to the conclusion that a dribble really starts when the ball is released or intentionally batted. if you hit it again before it hits the ground --illegal dribble in violation 4-15-2. if you run and catch it in air before hits it is travel. sometimes you have to wait and see what happens next before you know if the original bat/throw is part of a dribble or pass.

As far as listening to Adam goes, that's good advice IF you mean i should consider/think about hard/discuss seriously what he says. i think i did that..and try to do it with everyone. if however, you mean i should accept what he or anyone says blindly without thought/discussion that's bad advice.

I think you're about 50 years off....but close enough for this discussoin. :D

I can assure you with 100% certainty that this is not what he meant. :D

Had a play this afternoon right in front of me where a girl caught a pass on a fast break, fumbled it , regained control and laid it in. The ball never hit the ground and the fumble about about the free throw line. I was Lead tableside, and the bench right next to me goes crazy wanting a travel. I shake my head and give the "no control" signal, and then Center comes from 50 feet away calling travelling. Thanks bro. Then at halftime Center gave me a lecture about using "unofficial" signals and how he only came cuz he was 110% sure. I smiled and didn't say anything back. On to the next game!

Center, we got two problems here. First, you're wrong. Second, even if you're right when you make that call from there you make us both look bad.

He's a state finals guy, I wasn't about to tell him to stay the F out of my area. Smile and wave boys, smile and wave!

I realize that it is "unconventional" ball handling which occurs on the infrequently observed "running bobble" by A2 or other A# as you,ve described but we have Nothing. So, although a ref may cognitively know that A# purposefully utilized the "running bobble" to obtain offensive advantage ie men s rea, we still have Nothing. Play on.

I have worked about a dozen State finals myself and would not have told him to stay out of my area because I do miss stuff and need help on occasion, but I certainly would have told him that he was wrong and opened my Case Book to show him the ruling.

I'm beyond worrying about hurting someone's feelings when that person comes into my PCA and makes an incorrect ruling.

That's a different play, with a different ruling.