Count the basket?
 

Had a situation last night and I need some guidance. I am T, middle of the 3rd quarter (Girls Varisty...not that it matters). A1 puts up a 3 point attempt and while the ball is in the air my partner calls A5 for a push. The attempt was good and I give the signal as my partner is coming out, waving his arms like a windmill in a hurricane. He waves off the basket and awards B the ball for a spot throw-in on the baseline. I thought the basket should have counted but at this point A was up by 35 and it wasn't worth getting into a debate...especially since the coach for A didn't make a sound.

After the game my partner didn't want to discuss the play. My rule book wasn't in my bag (that mistake has been corrected) and I forgot to look when I got home. Should the basket have counted? It was clearly in flight when the foul was committed.

Thanks,

Yes the basket should have counted. Yes your partner was/is an asswipe for not knowing the rule and more importantly for not being willing to discuss the play afterwards.

Did you ask him what he had and he said "no basket?" In that case, I probably agree with you.

Or, did you just decide not to ask? In that case, I think you were wrong -- this was a rules issue and needs to be discussed (not debated)

I did not ask...and yes, I should have. The score was 43-8 and the game was not nearly as close as the score indicates. :eek: My quick assessment was that I was the only person in the gym who knew he was probably wrong and everyone was accepting the call. I made an "executive decision" to just move along.

When I get home tonight I will have my wife give me 50 whacks with the rule book as pentence. :D

On the court, I would have asked him whether the push occurred before the shot was released.

If I didn't ask during the game:
After the game, I would have asked him the same question.

If he doesn't want to discuss it, move on.

Count it. All day, everyday, twice on Sunday.

And what does it mean he doesn't want to discuss it? He actually said "i don't want to talk about it", or he just didn't agree wity your position?

If you're partner is waving it off, it's possible that the foul occured before the release. That's why you have the brief discussion on the spot. I tell my partner "The ball went in -- the basket should count unless your foul occured before the release of the ball". If he waves the shot off then, there's not much you can do as you have to assume the calling official knows when the foul occured better than you do.


Question: Would this be a correctable error for erroneously counting or cancelling a score?

I'm thinking of the scenario where the calling official waves off the shot. The coach asks to correct within the allowable time. And the officials discuss and agree that the foul occured after the release.

IMO, this is a ruling a varsity crew should know without having a rule book handy. If your partner doesn't want to discuss the play in the locker room, just like the coach who doesn't shake my hand, I will be having nothing but perfunctory conversation with him in the future.

If they disallowed the basket by misapplying the rule, yes it is correctable. If it was just a matter of the calling official saying that the foul occurred first, then changing his mind later, no it's just bad judgment and we can't go back an fix it.

Seems to me it's entirely possible the foul happened first - why else would he be emphatic about it. Since you didn't discuss it, how do you know. You say it's obvious the shot was first ... but if the shot was in your primary, and the foul in his ... how do you know? (And is it possible the foul he's calling was significantly earlier than whatever you THOUGHT he was calling ... again, in HIS primary, and not where you would be looking with a 3-pointer about to go up).

At the VERY least, while the timing was obvious to you, perhaps it was equally obvious (but opposite) to him...

I'm also curious to the exact situation regarding him not wanting to talk about it. Did you try? How? What did he say? Etc.

This is incorrect. It does not matter when the foul occurs, it matters when the foul is CALLED. If the whistle has not blown, a foul has not happened, therefore when this play happens, if its in the air when the whistle blows, count it, regardless of when the illegal contact started.

I am not sure what you are trying to say, but:

If the contact occured before the release and then the horn sounds before the release of the ball, the ball becomes dead when the horn sounds. Award two or three FTs depending upon the type of FG attempt. The official's whistle has no bearing on the play except to indicate that a Foul or Violation has occured.

MTD, Sr.

where does the post talk about the horn being involved? It is about a called foul on the release of a shot, correct?

Disagree. It's when the foul happens.

I got ahead of myself and forgot that the OP was not an End of Period scenario. But your statement, which I have highlighted in red is incorrect. As I stated in my OP is that the whistle is a signal to let everybody know that a Foul or Violation has occured. The whistle is always sounded after the fact.

A1 attempts a 3-point FG. If: a) A5 commits a foul before A1 releases the ball A5's foul causes the ball to become Dead immediately, even if the official does not sound his whistle until after A1 releases the ball; and b) if A5 commits a foul after A1 releases the ball, the ball remains Live until the shot is successful or unsuccessful even when the official sounds his whistle.

MTD, Sr.

First...to MD Longhorn,

The only way I have any idea about what my partner called was due to the initial report after his whistle and actions. While you are correct that I did not see the foul he called because I was on the three-point shooter it is equally true that he should have no idea if the shot should have counted because he should have (apparently was) focused on the action in the lane. I know for a fact that I heard his whistle a split second before the arching shot hit the net. I usually do not have a count during the flight of a shot so I do not know how long it was after the shot...my guess is a second or two.

As I said, he was so emphatic and demonstrative that, given the lop sided nature of the game, I chose not to go to him and discuss it then. It everyone wants to get onto me for that failing I will take it. If it would have been a tight game I would have certainly gone to him when everything unfolded.

This guy didn't like to talk...period. Having a pre-game was like pulling teeth. If he said 10 words I would be surprised. After a couple of points and it being obvious he didn't want to contribute I approached it by saying the approach I normally take (talking to the players early, strictly calling the hands on the dribbler from the start, etc.). He just nodded.

Afterwards I said I wanted to discuss the play and he said "Nothing to discuss." I asked a couple of questions about the situation in theory (don't remember the exact wording) and he just kept changing clothes without acknowledging my presence.

Tonight I will look in the books (rule and case) to see exactly when the ball would have become dead and study the relevant examples.

Basketball Fundamentals:

3. A goal is made when a live ball enters the basket from above and remains in or passes through unless canceled by a throw-in violation or a player-control foul.

16. The official’s whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead (it is already dead).

ART. 7

The ball becomes dead, or remains dead, when:

A foul, other than player-control or team-control, occurs (see exceptions a, b and c below).

ART. 9

The ball becomes dead, or remains dead, when:

A violation, as in Rule 9, Sections 2 through 13, occurs (see exception d below).

EXCEPTION: The ball does not become dead until the try or tap ends, or until the airborne shooter returns to the floor, when:

a. Article 5, 6, or 7 occurs while a try or tap for a field goal is in flight.

b. Article 5 or 7 occurs while a try for a free throw is in flight.

c. Article 7 occurs by any opponent of a player who has started a try or tap for goal (is in the act of shooting) before the foul occurred, provided time did not expire before the ball was in flight. The trying motion must be continuous and begins after the ball comes to rest in the player's hand(s) on a try or touches the hand(s) on a tap, and is completed when the ball is clearly in flight. The trying motion may include arm, foot or body movements used by the player when throwing the ball at his/her basket.

d. Article 9 as in 9-3-3 or 9-13-1, occurs by an opponent.

NOTE: If A1's try or tap is legally touched in flight, the goal counts if made, if the period ends before or after the legal touching. If the touching is interference or goaltending by A, no points are scored. If B violates, the points are awarded - either two or three depending on whether it was a two or three-point try or tap.

I'm sorry, but this is just wrong. The ball is dead when the foul occurs, not when it is called.

Not true. You should consult some of the RULES FUNDAMENTALS on page 73.

#16 "The official's whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead (it is already dead)."

#3 "A goal is made when a live ball enters the basket from above and remains in or passes through unless canceled by a throw-in violation or a player-control foul."

#13 "A live-ball foul by the offense (team in control or last in control if the ball is loose), or the expiration of time for a quarter or extra period, causes the ball to become dead immediately, unless the ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal. The ball also becomes dead when a player-control foul occurs.

So it is the moment of the foul that makes the ball dead, not the when the whistle blows. If the try is not yet in flight at the time of the foul, then the ball would become dead and there would be no goal as a dead ball, not a live ball, entered the basket.

I would have handled the entire situation just as you did.
Let him make this determination as he is the one who called the foul and he didn't want any input from you about anything over the course of the entire game.
There is a reason that your assignor has him working blow-out girls games. Unfortunate that you had to deal with him as a partner. No fun.

Posted on Arbiter - NCAA Women

DATE:

11/25/2014

RULE:

2-7-12, 6-5-1-f

QUESTION:

If we have an offensive foul (i.e. illegal screen) that occurs before the ball is released for a try, but the whistle does not sound until after the try is in flight, would we have to count the basket if it is made and then possibly shoot 1-and-1 bonus (if applicable) at the other end since there is no team control on a shot? I am led to believe this based on the 11/6 interp, but feel that we are rewarding the offense for an illegal act. I have a video of just such a play if you need to see it.

Would it make more sense to have the interp worded as such:

When the official has definitive knowledge that the foul happened prior to the release of the ball (for offensive fouls) or prior to the beginning of the try motion (for defensive fouls), then the shot shall be waved off. When the official does not have definitive knowledge, the sounding of the whistle will determine when the foul happened.

ANSWER:

The interpretation that was posted was based on previous responses to this question which may or may not have been made available to a wider audience. The rule is clear that the whistle sounds when a foul occurs (Rule 2-7.12) and the timer does not stop the clock until an official signals (again, present tense) a foul (Rule 5-11.1.a). A foul has not occurred until the whistle is blown. Previously, there was a video bulletin (2010-11, Video Bulletin #5 - Illegal Screen with Successful Try) which gives guidance for when it may be “too close to call” in determining whether or not the act of shooting occurred before or after a defensive foul not committed against the shooter or whether the ball is in flight before a team control foul occurs.

There's so much wrong with that interpretation, but I'll stick with the fact that we're not talking about NCAAW rules here, so I don't have to worry about this particular wrong interpretation.

Someone needs to vet that crap before it gets published.

Absolutely! Sounds like Mary Struckhoff screwing up the NCAA rules just as she used to do with the NFHS rules. So sad.

In all seriousness, lol @ your partner " waving arms like a windmill" to wipe the basket.

You know Mary's not involved anymore, right?

Doesn't Mary have something to do with NCAA Softball? I thought she left the NFHS to go to the NCAA but I do not remember in what capacity.

MTD, Sr.