Wofford/NC State–Gottfried technical foul (Video)
 

Karl Hess called a technical on NC State coach Mark Gottfried at 15:58 in the first half against Wofford yesterday, 12/14.

First NCSU game Hess has called since the Gugliotta/Corchiani incident nearly three years ago.

The game was on Fox Sports South, RSN, and WatchESPN I believe.

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Sounds like he said some magic words. And he messed with the wrong guy. Hess is not that guy to mess with. He will stick you and move on very quickly.

Coaches need to understand that we really do not care about them. It is not in our job description to care what they ultimately want to accomplish. Hess will be onto the next game and Gottfried will not even make the tournament. If they thought it was a foul, they would have called it.

Peace

Not a fan of the actually timing in calling the T...calling the T when he did took away an open 3. I think you need a more patient whistle here.

I would have waited until the shot and subsequent action from it was finished...then whacked the coach.

Honestly, I do not think he cared. He got tired of his mess and took action. I agree in normal circumstances we should wait, but he had enough.

Peace

I think we've all been there...someone...a player or coach says or does something so ridiculous and outlandish, or has just gotten to the point where you've had enough, that we just go ahead and WHACK 'em. I've seen it at all levels...NBA, NCAA, and high school.

I would hope though that after video review, that's the conclusion he'd come to was to wait the extra couple of seconds...then whack the coach.

As to the actual T, he probably said some magic words...and he was overly demonstrative by smacking down on his arm to indicate his displeasure with the coach. I don't see anything wrong with the actual T itself.

Gottfried says "That's bullsh!t Karl, I was just talking to you" after he gets the T.

Well, what I see is a coach talking while demonstratively clapping his hands. That's not "just talking" in my book.

And according to NCSU fans, it will be Hess's fault when they do not make the tournament. :rolleyes:

NCSU also had a game-winning three-point shot at the end that was correctly waved off by Hess, much to the fans' displeasure. I read an article (can't seem to find it at the moment) that said a water bottle was thrown in Hess's direction as he left the floor after the game.

State fans have blamed Hess for everything since the 2012 incident. I am surprised to hear that he had not called a single State game since that incident until yesterday.

In other news, I thought it was cool that this game was at Reynolds rather than PNC.

Is there a question here?

Curious to see what everyone thought of the aftermath. He stuck with the T then during the timeout comes all the way out to the opposite side of the floor still "jawing" at Hess. I thought the other 2 officials did a good job of getting in front of him just wondering how some officials would handle this in an NFHS game

In a HS game, coach doesn't get past the outer boundary of his huddle before I'm walking him back.

Somebody point me back toward where in a book (I'd love an NCAA-W book(s) reference, but anything will do) to where the case plays for "the official shall wait until the layup is successful/unsuccessful to assess the technical foul, yadayada" is supported by a rule reference that contradicts:

"Art. 2. A live ball shall not become dead when a foul is committed by an opponent of a player who starts a try for goal before a foul occurs, provided that time does not expire before the ball is in flight."

Haven't thought about that in a couple of years, can't find things, and want to know where that lives, so that I can explain how the cited rule doesn't for some reason include the HC as an "opponent."

As it is being determined that it would be in the best interest for police officers to wear body cams for sake of recording incidents and transparency, I would like to see microphone/recorders inserted into the precision timing devices that the officials wear. Record everything.....

Gottfried says he didn't use profanity prior to the T, everyone here is assuming that he must have used some magic words. Who's ever going to really know what happened and what was said?

Having recordings that conference assignors and university administration can go back, listen to and review could allow them to target and clean-up whichever side of the aisle needs it.

And if he didn't use profanity...so what? His overt actions of slapping down on his hand like he did in displeasure for the call was enough in itself to get a T.

I did not realize that profanity was the only reason to give a T for unsporting behavior.

Peace

Wrong, not everybody here is assuming that:

Where is it written T's are only for cursing?

1. The comparison is not valid. No one is going to jail over a technical foul.

2. These are not contradictory. One can use magic words without using profanity.

3. It's not our business what was said, I'm sure it's in Hess' report to Adams.

I agree with everything, but I doubt he reports to Adams, he reports to the supervisor of the conference. And I am sure that the situation was addressed in a report like all games at that level likely require.

Peace

That was your reasoning, not mine, in your first response to the OP.

I actually said, "magic words" might have been used. That is not necessarily profanity. The coach could have said, "You........" and then followed it with other words.

Do not try to twist this discussion. There are a lot of reasons coaches get Ts and often it is not what they say, but what they do.

Peace

If there was no profanity, my opinion is that what was done did not warrant the technical. Instead, especially with the past history and being his first game back in 3 years, why not have a 5 second conversation with the coach, tell him that's enough, and give a warning. 4 minutes into the game, optically speaking and perceptually, just looks bad and looks like Hess flat out has something against someone or something.

Maybe it was deserved, but it is truly unfortunate he had to be the one on the sideline at that time.

And you would be fired from even some lower level leagues if you only needed profanity to give a T. For the record at college games, we hear profanity all the time and do not penalize based off of profanity.

Since you are so concerned about when Hess was last there (not like this is a basketball mecca), I am sure Hess' schedule will be just fine not going back in the next 10 years.

Peace

1. The comparison is that there are conflicting sides of what happened. Video and/or audio can, in a lot of cases, determine which side is more truthful.

2. What is in Hess' report is Hess' version of what happened. And if Gottfrieds' report of what happened is totally opposite, then what?

I never said it was OUR business. I believe I said it would be something that could be used by conference assignors and school administration. Nobody should have anything to hide. Why would this be such a big deal?

Then I humbly request that every time I used the word profanity please replace it with 'magic words'.

That way maybe we can get past the 'small picture' and get back to the broader point(s) I was making.....

What can't be disputed is that Gottfried was demonstratedly clapping his hands together, an aspect you have failed to address.

You're the one who contradicted the "magic words" theory with the coach's denial that he used profanity.

Years ago, a man ran a red light and broadsided my wife's car. He challenged the ticket in court and kept insisting that he wasn't speeding.

The defense doesn't make sense in light of the charges. NCSU fans are deluding themselves if they think Hess even cares enough to be out to get them.

At that level, profanity is neither required nor sufficient for a technical foul.

Closest thing in the current books is this, though it is a bit of a stretch...fairly sure there used to be a case that involved an unsporting T on the HC,

Rule: 9.3.3


9.3.3 SITUATION D:

The score is tied 60 to 60 with four seconds remaining in the game. A1 has a fast break and is near the free-throw line on his/her way to an uncontested lay-up. B5 running down the court near the sideline, intentionally runs out of bounds in the hopes of getting a leaving-the-floor violation called.

RULING: B5's intentional violation should be ignored and A1's activity should continue without interruption.

COMMENT: Non-contact, away from the ball, illegal defensive violations (i.e. excessively swinging the elbows, leaving the floor for an unauthorized reason) specifically designed to stop the clock near the end of a period or take away a clear advantageous position by the offense should be temporarily ignored. The defensive team should not benefit from the tactic. If time is not a factor, the defense should be penalized with the violation or a technical foul for unsporting behavior. (10-1-8)

I didn't "see" anything that I deemed T worthy on the tape. Particularly at an NCAA men's level where coaches often walk out onto the floor during dead balls and use profanity at their players and in the direction of officials all the time. To be fair after the first t he said "That's bull$#!&" and there was no reaction so the idea that he's being penalized for profanity is off base anyway. I'm also not considering emphatic clapping in a gym with a few thousand hostile cheering fans to be excessive either though.

Now he could have quietly or even politely call out the integrity of an official. Made a personal remark or refernence. He could have even used any of the non profane magic words "cheater . . . cheating . . .idiot . . .blind . . .etc etc." but they would probably be enough to earn him a T.

You mentioned that I referenced profanity when I did no such thing. I said "magic words."

And even if he did not use profanity, who gives a darn? I have given a coach a T in college and did not use profanity and I never was told he should have used profanity to get a T by anyone. There is no "profanity only" rule in college basketball. At least not where I work and I doubt seriously at that level as well with all the video. Heck the NCAA has made a big deal about coaches boxes and different times.

If you want to get back to the bigger picture, then stop trying to tell us some standard that has never been stated by the NCAA or conference assignors. And an official like Hess I bet knows exactly what he can do and cannot do. He did not get to where he is based on listening to people here on what is appropriate.

Peace

Found it.

Case 10.4.1 F

Totally get that reference, and have a similar case play in another book, but again - and this is likely my being overly cerebral about it - but that doesn't necessarily provide a reference of rule or reference by direct follow-up statement in the case play that allows for a direct contradiction of the rule that states the ball does not become dead when an opponent commits a foul after the try has begun. Does what I'm trying to describe make sense? In other words, that case play says "the official should do this," but it doesn't then explain how that's okay or the proper thing to do by rule. One could interpret that case play last sentence to mean that "the official should wait to blow the whistle to assess the foul because the official needs to have game awareness of what's going on because the whistle could disrupt the shooter's concentration on the try."

In other words, the case play says that "this is the way the call should be made," but not that "by rule the whistle for a technical foul against an opponent causes the ball to become dead on a try that's begun."

A T is treated the same as any other foul in terms of when the ball becomes dead / continutation, etc.

The case play is saying to wait because if A hasn't started the try, B could get an advantage (the "sure thing breakaway" would be lost).

but, if your real question is "am I overthinking this?" then the answer is "yes." ;)

I appreciate that, Bob. ;)

Back to the beginning, then, doesn't that make this statement technically incorrect? Or am I misreading/misinterpreting what you're saying, here, APG?

I think bob is saying that the case play should, in this case, be read at face value. It's an unusual situation, and if B's coach is being a dick, there's no need to take away a scoring opportunity for A. Just wait a second or two.

Sure, the rule says the ball becomes dead when the foul occurs, but the case tells us they don't want a scoring opportunity to be taken away.

While I agree in principle about maybe waiting just a second or too longer, I think Gottfried said something before the Wofford player started to pass the ball which means Hess put air in his whistle before the second Wofford player started to shoot.

MTD, Sr.

But...doesn't the rule not say that?

read it this way: The foul occurs when the referee decided s/he's heard enough. The referee shouldn't decide this until the scoring chance is over.

Or -- the book doesn't always say what it means or mean what it says. That's why there is the case book.

(And, yes, I recognize that sometimes all of us take the side of "that's what the rule says" in a discussion.)

If you think it's too confusing, petition for a change.

The case tells us how they want us to apply the rule. The rule was written for most circumstances, and the case addresses the one time they want us to apply it differently.

That doesn't change how this play, in a perfect world, should have been handled.

APG:

I am not sure I follow your post.

MTD, Sr.

He's saying he'd still prefer to have seen Hess wait a moment before calling the T.