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-   -   N.C. State/Purdue (Video) (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/98755-n-c-state-purdue-video.html)

bob jenkins Wed Dec 03, 2014 01:40pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by so cal lurker (Post 945461)
This is a rule differene from fed, isn't it? As I understand NFHS as long as you re-establish in bounds all is good, right?

It is different, but your understanding is wrong. In FED, it's a violation as soon as you go OOB -- there's no "reestablishing" at all.

HokiePaul Wed Dec 03, 2014 03:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by refinks (Post 945451)
So then I guess I'm missing something, why would an official go common foul on that instead of the correct rule which would be an intentional/F1? To me that is a clear cut and dry textbook intentional/F1 every time, but it sounds like it isn't called that way, I'm just wondering why.

At the level I work, I can guarantee if I didn't call that an intentional foul, I'd be hearing from my assignor and probably losing games.

I can see why the Lead may have called a common foul initially. He had just rotated and may not have had a great angle to see the two handed shove, but rather made the call based on the way the shooter was displaced.
The Trail would have a clear view of the shove, but he is already in a full jog the other direction so he's in no position to help out.

I too would have thought that this would be an easy upgrade after replay, but I must not understand the NCAA interpretation.

Blindolbat Thu Dec 04, 2014 02:57am

No-brainer intentional for me.

Raymond Thu Dec 04, 2014 08:18am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 945362)
John Adams just sent out a bulletin criticizing officials for not properly ruling some FF1 & 2 plays.

That said, I have not seen the play in question.

Ok, seeing the play, I would say this falls under Adams' criticism.

PG_Ref Thu Dec 04, 2014 11:40am

Quote:

Originally Posted by so cal lurker (Post 945461)
This is a rule differene from fed, isn't it? As I understand NFHS as long as you re-establish in bounds all is good, right?

At the high school level, once a player goes out of bounds of their own volition, it is an immediate violation.

so cal lurker Thu Dec 04, 2014 12:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PG_Ref (Post 945594)
At the high school level, once a player goes out of bounds of their own volition, it is an immediate violation.

How does that apply in the real world? I assume it doesn't mean a player steps on the line trying to go arounds someone, or delierately leaping up to save a ball that is in the air over out-of-bounds territory and leavng the court in the process. Does it just apply to, for example, running noticeably off the court in an effort to gain a deceptive advantage?

Camron Rust Thu Dec 04, 2014 12:26pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by so cal lurker (Post 945602)
How does that apply in the real world? I assume it doesn't mean a player steps on the line trying to go arounds someone, or delierately leaping up to save a ball that is in the air over out-of-bounds territory and leavng the court in the process. Does it just apply to, for example, running noticeably off the court in an effort to gain a deceptive advantage?

Basically, yes, but I wouldn't limit it to deceptive advantages. It could be a simple tactical advantage such as getting to the other side of a screen to get open.

bob jenkins Thu Dec 04, 2014 12:26pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by so cal lurker (Post 945602)
How does that apply in the real world? I assume it doesn't mean a (1) player steps on the line trying to go arounds someone, or (2) delierately leaping up to save a ball that is in the air over out-of-bounds territory and leavng the court in the process. Does it just apply to, for example, (3) running noticeably off the court in an effort to gain a deceptive advantage?


(numbers added above)


it applies to "going out on the player's own volition" so it does NOT apply to your second example.

By rule it applies to your first, but in the real word it might not (it certainly would if both feet were out of bounds)

your third example would be a T.

Other that the "first to touch the ball" addition in NCAA rules, the concept is the same.

westneat Thu Dec 04, 2014 12:42pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 945378)
That's a pretty basic NCAA rule. If you go OOB of your own volition, you cannot catch the first pass after you return.

Hey, so I found a copy of the NCAA rules book. Can you help me find where it says this?

The closest I can find is 9-4-1.

"A player who steps out of bounds under his own volition and then becomes the first player to touch the ball after returning to the playing court has committed a violation."

But in this case, he's (Player A1 that goes out of bounds) not the first player to touch the ball. His teammate (A2) is still touching the ball and hasn't released a pass, so A2 is the first person to touch the ball after A1 returns from out of bounds. So how can there be a violation?

Is there a case book or AR (whatever the NCAA M version is) for this rule?

Remington Thu Dec 04, 2014 12:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 945605)
Basically, yes, but I wouldn't limit it to deceptive advantages. It could be a simple tactical advantage such as getting to the other side of a screen to get open.

10-3-2 says it could also be a technical if it is deceitful.

Remington Thu Dec 04, 2014 12:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by westneat (Post 945377)
I would also like to see someone comment on the play noted in this article:

ACC Basketball: Strange ruling costs N.C. State a chance to tie Purdue - Fayetteville Observer: ACC Basketball

I don't work NCAA, but it sounds like the rule quoted is meant to apply to loose balls. His teammate is still holding the ball when he comes back in bounds, so he wouldn't be "first to touch".

9-4-1 NCAA-M
Art. 1. A player who steps out of bounds under his own volition and then becomes the first player to touch the ball after returning to the playing court has committed a violation.

a. A violation has not been committed when a player, who steps out of bounds as permitted by Rule 7-4.6.b, does not receive the pass along the end line from a teammate and is the first to touch the ball after his return to the playing court.

westneat Thu Dec 04, 2014 01:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Remington (Post 945615)
9-4-1 NCAA-M
Art. 1. A player who steps out of bounds under his own volition and then becomes the first player to touch the ball after returning to the playing court has committed a violation.

a. A violation has not been committed when a player, who steps out of bounds as permitted by Rule 7-4.6.b, does not receive the pass along the end line from a teammate and is the first to touch the ball after his return to the playing court.

See my question above. Isn't the player holding the ball first to touch?

PG_Ref Thu Dec 04, 2014 02:04pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by westneat (Post 945617)
See my question above. Isn't the player holding the ball first to touch?

Not according to the interpretation of the rule. The player receiving the pass would be considered the first to touch it.

bob jenkins Thu Dec 04, 2014 02:31pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by westneat (Post 945612)
Hey, so I found a copy of the NCAA rules book. Can you help me find where it says this?

The closest I can find is 9-4-1.

"A player who steps out of bounds under his own volition and then becomes the first player to touch the ball after returning to the playing court has committed a violation."

But in this case, he's (Player A1 that goes out of bounds) not the first player to touch the ball. His teammate (A2) is still touching the ball and hasn't released a pass, so A2 is the first person to touch the ball after A1 returns from out of bounds. So how can there be a violation?

Is there a case book or AR (whatever the NCAA M version is) for this rule?

The rule book doesn't always say exactly what it means or mean exactly what it says.

Replace "first" with "next", if that helps you.

Here's a play: A2 goes OOB around a screen and returns. A1 passes the ball to A2, but the ball is tipped by B1. The pass still makes its way to A2. Violation? ;)

westneat Thu Dec 04, 2014 08:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 945625)
The rule book doesn't always say exactly what it means or mean exactly what it says.

Replace "first" with "next", if that helps you.

Here's a play: A2 goes OOB around a screen and returns. A1 passes the ball to A2, but the ball is tipped by B1. The pass still makes its way to A2. Violation? ;)

This is obviously not. But back to the interpretation of first pass, that's fine. Is there a case book or released NCAA approved ruling or something of that nature providing that interpretation?


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