Illegal Undershirts Prior to Start of Game
 

Had this situation come up and wanted to get opinions.

Prior to the game, Team A had been practicing with their warmup shirts on. During the captains meeting, Team A coach is asked if team is properly equipped and of course he says yes. Starting lineups are announced and kids still have warmups on. They shed the warmups to come out for the tip and 3 kids have illegal undershirts...black undershirts with white jerseys.

Now obviously the kids can't play with them and by rule they can't take them off at the bench. They need to go back to the locker room and change. Now, by rule, the coach can't send 3 other players in to start the game otherwise it would be an admin tech for changing the starters. Is it acceptable to hold the game to let them change or is a DOG warranted here? Couldn't find this in the case book but would like a specific rule reference if possible.

For those who ask, what happens when a coach says "no"? :confused:

Inform the coach those players will not be allowed to participate until they are legally equipped.

Designated starters can be changed for illegal equipment without penalty. rule 3-2-2(a) nfhs. you cannot change designated starter for illegal equipment in NCAA M without penalty. 10-2b

Or ...

3-2-2
ART. 2

After the 10-minute time limit specified in Article 1, a team is charged with a maximum of one technical foul regardless of how many infractions of the following are committed (see 10-1-2 Penalty):

a. Changing a designated starter, unless necessitated by illness, injury, illegal equipment or apparel, etc., or to attempt a technical-foul free throw.

I'd let them fix it and wait a minute or two.

Glad I'm not the only one.

Me too:D

It's a pretty basic, obvious rule. undershirts have to match. in a high school game i tell them to give me 3 other starters. It's just another call. waiting for them to run to the locker room and change etc. rewards them. i don't think i'm nitpicking when they can't get an obvious rule straight. i let them play for a minute without their starters. they will probably figure it out/take it serious the next game…
a grade school game i can see waiting…

Why cause a problem? Just let them change their shirts and delay the game a couple of minutes. I understand not wanting to hold the game up for it, but I don't see the big deal.

Exactly what we did last night...took the starter about 30 seconds to run out into the hall and get that t-shirt off and get back onto the court.

I'm Not Likin' Where This is Goin'...
 

I'm sure the opposing coach who knows the rule wouldn't consider your suspending of a clear rule a "big deal", especially if you were doing it solely for personal convenience, not wanting to "cause a problem". :rolleyes:

I'm not suspending anything. The rule *allows* a change in starter for an illegal shirt -- it does NOT forbid me from giving 30 seconds to a minute for a player to change the shirt.

It would take longer to explain the rule to the coach and require new starters and get them properly marked in the book for me to let the kid(s) change out of the illegal shirts.

Sometimes it's better for you and for the game to put a little oil on that wheel.

Thx Bryan,

If they can correct it within a minute that's fine. rule says it is supposed to be a T to delay game for more than a minute. so they can delay game by less than a minute. that should be enough time to fix it so your likely not going to have to replace starters etc. However, if they can't fix it in a minute i don't have any problem telling them to replace them. i won't wait minutes for this one.

as i said, its not a big deal--just another call. so the starters check in at the first dead ball... the referee didn't cause the problem. if it was a new rule or something obscure id look at it differently. But this is 5th grade stuff--coaching 101…having 3 players, who i assume are on a varsity team, come out with black shirts under white uniforms falls into the major coaching/player screwup category. there may be things id delay longer than a minute for….this isn't one of them.
i do agree with Rich that some times putting oil on the wheel is better…i just don't see this situation as needing it. thx

Yes you are wrong.

Just found the rule. Got arm sleeves and under shirts confused. :rolleyes:

It normally takes them 30 seconds to go into the hallway and come back. It's like magic. They don't have to go to the locker room. That still gives him a few seconds to throw his illegal undershirt to his girlfriend.

What "clear rule" is being suspended??

There is nothing in the rule book that says we can't send the kid to change and take an extra 30 seconds before we toss the ball.

i agree it really shouldn't ever be an issue. but a team goofy enough to have 3 starters with black undershirts may send them all the way to the locker room, instead of telling them to take them off in the hall…..

Sure enough if I didn't read this yesterday and then have it happen last night. All of the starters were ok...but about 5 minutes into the 1st Q, A6 comes into the game with a green jersey and black t-shirt. I step in and ask the young man to go take it off...HC says he looked it up before the game and it can be black, white or jersey color...one partner says he isn't sure, R says just leave it alone. There I was on my own little island...SMH

Just The Facts, Ma'am ...
 

Stupid "Fashion Police" rules. Just for kicks, try figuring out the rule differences for tights, leg sleeves, and compression shorts. Now try to figure out the difference between long tights, and "regular" length compression shorts. Got a headache yet?

Seriously?
 

I'm surprised so many would let them go and change. The coach confirmed his players were legally equipped. Make him pay for his mistake, he won't make it again. Would you delay the game so a sub could go and change? Probably not, so why the starters?

Make him pay? Eh, I simply don't think that way. I'm there to manage a game.

Shrug.

Rich, how would you manage the sub with an illegal t-shirt? 4 minutes into the game, first sub for the team? Not at the end of the game and someone who never gets to play.

Different scenario -- I send him into the hall to change it. If there's a stoppage and it doesn't delay the game (for example, a timeout), I'll wait. If not, he can come in on the next dead ball.

Making the team change its STARTERS would delay the game more than sending the kids into the hall to remove the t-shirts.

I'm not so sure. Either way, you have to send three players into the locker room/hallway, so instead of waiting for them, why not expedite things by getting three players checked in and the game started? What's more, they'll be less likely to do it again, if you're not going to wait for them.

I am going by the NFHS Rules. I am going to inform the HC that he needs to replace three of his starters and then have the Timer start a 20 second count down for a substitute with the warning buzzer after 5 seconds.

MTD, Sr.

I'm all for tactful application of petroleum product to expedite the process and get on to all the non-fashion police aspects of the game.
I'm also aware that there are two specific coaches in our area, each adept at the rules, who would make this an issue if we granted the leeway I'd probably otherwise give with other coaches who could care less.
Therefore I'd hesitate to make a blanket policy to cover my setting aside a rule. Sometimes? Perhaps. Always? Um, no.
And no, I don't tend to be an O.O.O. :) Just hate it for the phone to ring and it being my assigner on the other end. Cuz his first question is gonna be, "Can I support your decision by rule?"
Then again, not such a big deal, cuz we'll probably catch it during warmups anyway.

Go By The Book, And He'll Back You 100% ...
 

Do we have the same assigner?

And, sure enough, guess what happened today?

Blue team had one starter wear a black t-shirt. Told to the coach to put in another starter while he went to the locker room to change. Made the change in the book, no penalty.

This forum follows you, I swear!

Had it happen once, three years ago in a BV game. Home team's starting PG had a maroon long sleeved shirt under his white jersey. Told HC the kid couldn't play with the shirt on (didn't see it until we were getting ready for the jump-ball because of the warm-up jersey). Kid starts to take off the jersey at the bench. I tell the HC he can't do that or else it's a T. I tell HC give me a sub and tell the kid to go change in the hallway.

The most annoying part about the scenario was my partner thought the maroon shirt was okay since it was one of the colors in the home team's jersey. Sigh...

And there's the rub. egj13, I feel your pain but if you were 100% sure you were right - and you were - go for it. If the assignor calls and asks - and some might - at least you did your due diligence, especially if the R told you to leave it alone.

BTW, there's an NCAAW coordinator - and, presumably, a crew - who received a call last night from the SRE because officials allowed the following in a D1 game:

http://i62.tinypic.com/34huujn.jpg

The eyes are everywhere.

For those who do not have the list of acronyms, SRE = secretary rules editor.

SMFH, y'all are some frickin' jinxes.

First HS assignment of season. BJV/BV DH. I'm R for JV game. Both teams wearing wam up tops for lay up line. As I'm getting ready to administer opening tap, U2 holds me up. 2 home team players are wearing black t-shirts. I send them off to change and they remain starters.

Funny thing is that it turns out the JV coach thought the sleeve rule applied to t-shirt sleeves, not to the actual shooting sleeves.

SMFH, y'all are some frickin' jinxes.

Had a JV/Varsity doubleheader tonight. Corrected undershirts of both Varsity teams. Spotted one on the visitors right before the national anthem; coach said thanks for enforcing what he keeps telling this kid. Spotted one on the home team at the first dead ball, made him leave and change. Later in the first half I was near the visiting coach and said "did you see me make them change too?" Coach replied he wanted my number cuz I was an official who followed the rules. :cool:

I don't know why they don't just change the undershirt rule to match the arm sleeve rule. I can't see why and black arm sleeve would really be any different than a black t-shirt.

I agree. I also think that the visiting team should not be allowed to wear white sleeves.

I'd support "if worn, the home team headbands, wristbands, visible undergarments and sleeves must all be white. Those worn by the visiting team must be black or the color of the jersey."

I think they should make the sleeve rule match the undershirt rule.

Common Sense ...
 

A Fashion Police rule that I can live with. Rational, and easy to interpret, explain, teach, and follow.

And beige has to go. I'm sure that the color was included in the rule several years ago due to the fact that it was the most common color for prewrap at the time, but now prewrap comes in all the colors of the rainbow, and more. Plus beige is a stupid color, plain, and boring. And how many teams do you see with beige uniforms? Welcome to Millard Fillmore High School, the home of the Beige Drabs. The color beige doesn't belong in basketball, or any other sport.

Undershirts And Arm Sleeves ...
 

Agree.

I could go with that too.

However, I think the black/white inclusion would probably never be removed because those are the easiest colors to obtain. Jersey colored sleeves just may not be readily available for some colors.

I don't like playing fashion police. At a JV game, Team A (the home team) was wearing warm-ups in their pre-game; at the captains meeting, coaches certified that everyone was legal and properly unformed. As we get ready for the tip, I notice A1 with a white undershirt but A2 with a black undershirt. I quietly ask the visiting coach if he wants me to make an issue of A2, he says no, so we play on. In the JV game before ours, one kid had a camo undershirt.

Let's Play Kick The Can Down The Road ...
 

So you're taking advice from a coach rather than fixing the problem for the next group of officials, officials who do not ignore simple "Fashion Police" rules, that work Team A's future games.

I don't like playing "Fashion Police" either, but I do it. I don't want to be the official that the coach talks about when he says, "but the official at Tuesday night's game let us wear those undershirts."

https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.6080...w=74&h=112&p=0

Eventually they are going to run into people that do follow the rules. Not doing it yourself just makes the problem worse.

Billy:

I could not have said it better.

MTD, Sr.

I have never asked a coach if he was okay with something the other team was doing. Bad habit to get into.

FWIW, there's a loophole to this rule that's come in handy in middle school contests, where uniforms can be a little big, and upper body skin is sensitive subject matter.

If a player has an illegally colored undershirt, I ask, "Coach, follow me now, is she wearing that t-shirt for religious reasons?" Once the answer is yes, we're off the hook.

I don't do this in a high school game.

I'm certainly no expert on the subject, but I've never heard of a t-shirt being worn for religious reasons. Underwear? Yes. But t-shirts?

How about having coaches and players just follow the rules? They learn, and you don't create headaches for other officials that actually care for the rules.

With that said, if I'm told that something is worn for religious reasons, then I'm not going to push it. But I'm sure as hell not going to present a loophole... I'm not their lawyer.

there is not a loophole and you are not off the hook. you can get a religous exception for headwear for sure and likely other things but you have to go through the official state association to get it. you cant just show up on game day and declare religion...

and if it was religious the player could probably get the proper colored shirt.

Don't let them in. Tell the coach he can't come in until the shirt is changed. Coach will send him to locker room and get it changed. I'm going to manage the game.

3-5 Note And Exception ...
 

Sorry bainsey. No NFHS loophole for undershirts for religious reasons. See your tax accountant and he may be able to come up with a more acceptable loophole.

NOTE: Each state association may, in keeping with applicable laws, authorize exceptions
to NFHS playing rules to provide reasonable accommodations to individual participants
with disabilities and/or special needs, as well as those individuals with unique and
extenuating circumstances. The accommodations should not fundamentally alter the
sport, allow an otherwise illegal piece of equipment, create risk to the athlete/others or
place opponents at a disadvantage.

EXCEPTION: State associations may on an individual basis permit a player to participate
while wearing a head covering if it meets the following criteria:
a. For medical or cosmetic reasons – In the event a participant is required by a licensed
medical physician to cover his/her head with a covering or wrap, the physician's
statement is required before the state association can approve a covering or wrap
which is not abrasive, hard or dangerous to any other player and which is attached
in such a way it is highly unlikely that it will come off during play.
b. For religious reasons – In the event there is documented evidence provided to the
state association that a participant may not expose his/her uncovered head, the state
association may approve a covering or wrap which is not abrasive, hard or
dangerous to any other player and which is attached in such a way it is highly
unlikely it will come off during play.

I should have prefaced this with "check local listings," a.k.a. "Roman law applies." Some readers have associations that allow for leniency; some don't.

Don't let the inmates run the asylum.

i don't recommend ever saying "Coach, follow me now…"