Jump Ball Violation
 

A1 and B1 jumpers...B1 violates by catching jump ball.. throw in awarded to A and coach states that Team A should get the AP arrow too.

6.4.1 E...Team A gain possession establishes arrow..so Team B gets arrow.

Right application of rule?

P.S. Coach is also a local basketball offical..I hope that she did not know the rule versus trying to bait me into a mistake on purpose by knowing the rule:confused:

You got it right.

Were you paying attention to the BYU/SDSU game? :D

Double Jeopardy ???
 

This would be the incorrect interpretation several years ago, which is what sometimes confuses a few older coaches, and "more experienced" officials.

Now stand back, and watch the Forum "light up with this next statement. If the timekeeper starts the game clock in error, then reset the game clock to 8:00. And, get ready for it, ... boom goes the dynamite.

Don't confuse younger officials with old, outdated rules or interpretations. That's the only dynamite I have.

Such as being able to enter the FT lane on the shooter's release? ;)

Legally Touched ...
 

5-9-2: If play is started or resumed by a jump, the clock shall be started when the tossed ball is legally touched.

6-3-7-C: Neither jumper shall: Catch the jump ball.

I predicted that the dynamite would go boom. Anybody have any better citations? Anybody have any less "confusing" citations?

From A Retired Thirty Plus Year Teacher ...
 

There's a reason why some believe the ball, and arrow, version. Your confusion can be somebody else's fuller understanding. If one knows the reason (it's the old rule) why some would believe that the team that didn't catch the jump ball would get both the ball, and the arrow, then it may be easier to understand the newer rule.

I disagree that it helps understand the newer rule, but it can help with understanding why a coach might think that, and help in the explanation to the coach.

I don't really know why you'd need anything else. And you can catch the ball after it's been legally touched -- so having some time run off the clock is possible (and, I'd say, likely).

First Touch Violation ...
 

Agree (illegally catching the ball after a legal touch), with no reset of the game clock back to 8:00.

However, if the first touch is an illegal catch, and if the clock did mistakenly run down to 7:59, then the game clock should reset to 8:00. After all, the umpire (or nontossing official) should have never dropped their hand to chop in time, the hand should have remained up due to the first touch (catch) signaling the violation.

BillyMac Nye The Science Guy ...
 

The first year that I taught Earth Science, I taught my students that blue stars were the hottest, and that red stars were the coolest. I even gave them examples of a piece of steel being heated up becoming, progressively, red hot, orange hot, yellow hot, white hot, and finally blue hot, before melting. A few days later, many, including several of my better students, got questions regarding star color, and temperature, wrong on an exam. I questioned them about the reason why they got such simple questions wrong. They replied that hot water faucet labels are often colored red, and that cold water faucet labels are often colored blue. From then on, I always warned them not to confuse water faucet label colors with star colors (it's counterintuitive, as previous students had done in the past) on Astronomy exams. After that, there were seldom mistakes made by my students regarding star colors, and temperatures.

Find Cool, Red Stars in the Night Sky This Thanksgiving

Or, teaching my students that the symbol for Argon is Ar, and the symbol for Arsenic is As, and that these are often confused by students. So remember that Arsenic is one of the few common elements that gets its symbol from the first, and third letter, of its name, it's more of an exception than the rule.

I don't agree. That touch is legal. The catching happens to violate a jumpball restriction, not a legal means of contacting the ball. The jumper didn't punch the ball. That would be an illegal touch.

Boom Goes The Dynamite ...
 

I respectfully disagree with you. The catching violates the jump ball rules, and is thus, illegal. Plus, a really good nontosser would have never chopped in the clock, so the mistaken timekeeper would have made a timing error, that should be corrected with definite knowledge.

How about touching the ball on the way up? Reset 7:59 to 8:00?

A1 makes a throw-in pass to A2 from a spot on the sideline. The pass is on the outside of the imaginary boundary plane as it travels down the court parallel to the sideline. A2 catches the ball with his feet inbounds, but his arms extended over the out of bounds area.
Do you start the clock or not?

A3's throw-in pass is in the imaginary cylinder above the basket when B2 is the first player to touch it.
Start the clock or not?

Why The "Or" ...
 

Great, thought provoking, questions Nevadaref. Thanks.

My interpretations, based on the rules: Start the clock in both situations.

5-9-4: If play is resumed by a throw-in, the clock shall be started when the
ball touches, or is legally touched by, a player on the court after it is released by
the thrower.

I'm not quite sure why the NFHS states "touches, or is legally touched". To me, this seems like overkill, and it should be just "touches", or just "legally touches", based on the intent (I'm not even going to try to guess intent here) of the NFHS in this timing rule. "Touches" should take care of both legal, and illegal, touches, whereas, "legally touched" just takes care of legal touches. Why does the NFHS offer a choice here with the word "or"? If they wanted both legal, and illegal, touches to start the clock then they should have just gone with just he word "touches". If they wanted only legal touches to start the clock then they should have gone with just "legally touched". Again, why the choice? Why the "or?

That being said, let's go back to jump balls, where the rules specifically state "legally touched", and only "legally touched". To paraphrase my ninth grade Geometry teacher, Mr. Fiore, "if, and only if, legally touched". No if, ands, or buts; ors, nors, or fors.

5-9-2: If play is started or resumed by a jump, the clock shall be started when the tossed ball is legally touched.

Your move.

And a violation causes the ball to become dead, which stops the clock, so why did you start it?

Illegal Throwin
 

On a throwin, we are advised, by rule, to start the clock when the ball touches a player on the court, either legally, or illegally. If it's an illegal throwin, then I guess that we just stop the clock (dead ball) as soon as possible. Hey. I don't make up these rules. Don't kill the messenger. After all, it's the NFHS that we're dealing with here, not a Mensa International chapter.

Dueling rules:

5-8-1-C:Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, shall be stopped when an official: Signals: A violation.

5-9-4: If play is resumed by a throw-in, the clock shall be started when the ball touches, or is legally touched by, a player on the court after it is released by the thrower.

I would actually prefer that 5-9-4 have the words, "touches, or" deleted, so that it reads, "If play is resumed by a throw-in, the clock shall be started when the ball is legally touched by a player on the court after it is released by the thrower". The we could treat the throwin violations (as discussed above) the same as the jumpball violations (as discussed above) and reset the clock back to the original time if it was started in error.

Sometimes you have to read the part that isn't there.

i think if you look at the throw in rule--it says ball has to be touched by a player on the court. it then says (in bounds or out of bounds). so court means both inbounds and out of bounds to me.
this provision we are talking about says start the clock when the ball touches or is legally touched by a player on the COURT. i take this to mean that the clock should start when the ball hits a player, inbounds or out of bounds, or when a player goes after and touches the ball, inbounds or out of bounds, legally. we know touching the ball while standing with foot on line, out of bounds, is a violation. so if a violation could not be considered a legal touching it would not say this. i think technically, the clock is supposed to start when contact with ball is made by a player unless he kicks it or fists it. i dont think other violations equal an illegal touch...
in the real world if you are T at half court and the ball is thrown at basket you might chop time moment ball is touched, your partner at C then may realize that is BI and blow his whistle. if a second ran off the clock i dont think you put it back on. on the other hand, if you see and recognize immediatey that the touch is BI and dont chop time then clock shouldnt start. you did not signal so if timer did take it off i think you could put it back on. i think ultimately your arm is in charge...if you chop, clock should run, if you dont, it shouldnt...
but as i think a bit longer, i see why billy says they want you to always chop and then call violation. if you dont you could have a score with no time running off the clock...

my thoughts..

Stupid NFHS Start The Clock On A Throwin Violation Rule ...
 

I'm not sure what the NFHS wants, the reason for my "dueling rules" statement.

One thing that I do know, is that if the first touch on a jump ball is an illegal touch (catch, or on the way up), and if the clock mistakenly starts, then I'm setting it back to the original time.

So?

So. i dont know. something didnt seem quite right about it an hour ago....

So you are going to have the game begin and then a violation involving touching a live ball take place without it being timed? I don't agree with that. In my opinion, game action involving the touching of a live ball inbounds needs to be accounted for in the game time.

Either way true ruling on this eventually comes down, the NFHS needs to issue a clear directive on these timing matters. The committee did that recently with a throw-in being kicked (It said, "don't start the clock."), but it did not address other scenarios in which a violation occurs when the clock is supposed to start, by rule, such as A2 catching the throw-in pass while standing on a boundary line or BI during a throw-in. The NFHS could have addressed these situaions, but didn't. So does that tell us the "no time off" ruling only applies to a kick/fist being the initial touch? A solid argument can be made in support of that, but I can't say definitively that that is what the NFHS desires.

Btw BillyMac and I were part an extensive thread on this topic a couple of seasons ago. Since nothing new has been published by the NFHS there isn't any reason to revisit this now, other than to entertain a few new forum members.

What doesn't seem right is that the throw-in spot could change from one end of the court to the other without any time coming off the clock.

So?

That's Entertainment! (1974) ...
 

Agree, and I hope that we entertained the troops. I certainly enjoyed it.

I don't see a problem here. It's a (potential) quirk of the rules that no one could intentionally take advantage of.

Question: A1 and B1 Jumpers..A1 tips the ball and B1 catches ball off A1 tip.

LEGAL?

Was the ball initially legally touched? Yes. A1's tip was a legal touch.

Was B1's touch legal? No.

to be 100% clear..the fact that A1 legally touched the ball first with the tip still does not permit B1 to catch that tip.

This play happened in a game last night and I did not call a violation and Coach was on me..:rolleyes:

Your question seems to imply that legally touching the jump ball ends the jump ball and the jump ball restrictions.

Does it? Answer that, and you'll have your answer.

Bob, PLEASE don't make me do it....I guess I have to...The COACH WAS RIGHT:)

Learned something new:confused:

Jump Ball Restrictions End ...
 

The jump ball and the restrictions in 6-3-7 end when the touched
ball contacts one of the eight nonjumpers, an official, the floor, a basket or
backboard.