Uconn v Stanford Women's (Video)
 

Going into the under 8 timeout with 7:50 left or so. Charge call but it looked like she was on the RA.

Anybody else see it or able to post video? Interested in the thoughts of the college officials.

Not only that, but Brenda Pantoja just gave a one-finger directional signal after a monitor review! ;)

Foul signal
 

On Stanford's three to tie the game with a second left, from the opposite end line camera angle, you can see the lead go up with a fist and switch it to a three point signal when it is good. A case of a brain fart for her or was she going to call a foul if it was missed?

I saw the RA play, too. Looked to be in the RA, I think the C is supposed to help out on that.

In other news, Doris Burke just threw a fit about a foul call at 2:13 in OT. I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who doesn't care for her!

<iframe width="853" height="480" src="//www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/RFWtQiRq3bA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

It would appear it was missed. According to our mechanics the wrong official made the call as well. It should have been the C's all the way with the L as help.

I'd be stunned if that one wasn't clipped and sent to the assignor and/or if it doesn't find its way to our Central Hub on Arbiter.


Just watched it. She may have mulligan-ed. Went up with the fist because she saw contact then thought better of it.


Not really a "fit" but the call may have left a little to be desired. Where UConn could complain is the signal given was a push/two-hand touch and UConn #41 never put two hands on the BH/dribbler.

Looked like the C is pointing at something about the time the L makes the punch.

CHARGE!!

MTD, Sr.

Umm.....what?! :confused:

You have to forgive Mark - he thinks EVERYTHING is a charge. Even when it's not, by rule.

It looks like the C is pointing at the L with the "You got this one" point...which, as JMF said, is wrong. Should have been C's call all the way. And it also kind of looks like the L is surprised that the C is giving it up.

And JMF, I agree - it will be on the hub some time this week! :eek:

I don't work any level with the RA, but can't the Center come in on plays like this and give the Lead information that the defender was in the RA? That is assuming the Center sees the defender in the RA to begin with, which I'm not sure she did on this play.

yes, the center can help.

White 41, guarding Blue 30, slid over to take the charge. Would she be considered a secondary defender?
If so, does that change the mind-set of the C and L, as to which official takes the call?
Would that explain the point by the C, that seems to indicate that L should take the call?
Is there a difference as to which official takes that call, based on when/where the ballhandler received the pass, that is, as she crossed the freethrow line extended, or if she had received the pass higher, on her path to the basket?

On drives from C to L, C takes the call (in NCAAW).

On a fastbreak, any defensive player is a secondary defender (in NCAAW)

A couple of things. Here's a screen grab of the moment UConn #30 establishes PC:

http://i57.tinypic.com/2u59lax.jpg

*Once the UConn player caught the pass, she was in the C's PCA. Any contact on the C's side of the lane is hers. The L is supposed to help if needed.
*She caught the pass/began her move outside the LDB so the RA is on (I'm teaching myself to go through that thought process).
*By rule, every defender in a fast break situation is a secondary defender (NCAAW 4.35.2). We have to expect the player closest to the goal is going to slide over.

What I think happened - and this is obviously just a guess - is even though we only see a fist from the C, the L may have blown her whistle first and that threw off the C's concentration. The L didn't see the C make a call and instead of telling the C to take it, she kept it.

I'm making that guess based on something that happened to me in a scrimmage about ten days ago. Same type of fast break situation, I'm the C but the contact was actually on the block nearest to me as opposed to deeper in the lane. My L not only had a whistle he also had a preliminary. Thankfully we both had a block but hearing his whistle when I didn't expect anyone else to blow threw me off and my mechanics on the play were horrible.

I can see that as a possibility...sure looks like the L is waiting for the C to take the call. And then when C points to L, she hits her whistle again (ugh) and sells the signal.

Would love to hear from the C why she gave that up.

JetManFan:

You forgot the most important word in NCAAW R4-S35-A2: "initially". When B-11 gained PC of the Ball there was no defender between her and the Basket. W-41 established a LGP against B-11 before B-11 became airborne.

I agree that in theory the C should have this play all the way to the Basket. And in this type of play the L has a good look at W-41 coming from her PCA to establish a LGP. My problem is that the L may have been straight-lined just before B-11 became airborne, none-the-less, this was an easy charge for the C to get.

MTD, Sr.

Mark, this IS NOT a charge period.

Typo? Or, am I missing something.

And, I agree that this should NOT have been a PC foul because of the RA.

Mark, you are aware of the purpose of that little arc they drew under the basket, right?

By the RA rule, you're correct, it is a block. But there is nothing about this play that "should" make it a block aside from an arbitrary line on the court.

I struggle to see how anyone sees this as a charge after watching the replay (so I'm honestly looking for your opinion if it is different). I don't work women's so I may be out of the loop on the rules. On the men's side this is a block all day long as the defender never establishes LGP outside of the RA in my opinion. The contact can happen in the RA and be an offensive foul if the defender establishes LGP and retreats into the RA. These calls are tough and we should never criticize an official for missing heels being in the RA.

I think that is the point. The RA is at play. If it was not, then Mark or anyone would have a case for a charge.

Peace

Bob:

It was a typo and I corrected it.

This is a charge because A-41 was the primary defender therefore, the RA is not relevant to the play.

MTD, Sr.

Okay...and? :confused:

This is an RA play...short of Mark not knowing the rule, there's no case for a charge on this play.

Unless the rule is different in Women's, on a fast break everyone is a secondary defender.

Peace

1. This is a fast break

2. The defender is a help defender who came to help off the player she was initially guarding in the paint...this also makes her a secondary defender.

1) NCAAW R4-S35-A2 states that in a fast break situation all defenders are initially secondary defenders. That does not mean that all defenders are secondary defenders during the entire fast break play which would be nonsense. At some point during the fast break play there is the possibility that there will be a defender who will become the primary defender against the ball handler. By rule the RA applies to a secondary defender and does not apply to the primary defender.

2) As Warner Wolfe would say: "Lets go to the video!" When B-11 gains PC control of the ball she has a clear path to the Basket; there are no defenders between her and the Basket. She is not being defended. That means when A-41 established a LGP against B-11, she became the primary defender against B-11. The RA does not apply in this situation and B-11 charges into A-41.

3) If one takes the position that NCAAW R4-S35-A2 means that there cannot ever be a primary defender during a fast break play, then in the play being discussed, no defender would be allowed to defend B-11 once she gains PC of the Ball and has to be allowed to drive to the Basket uncontested, which in nonsense.

MTD, Sr.

That's not at all what the rule says or what the rule means.

That is not what the rule says at all. I'm not really sure how you came to that conclusion.



NCAA-W Case Book (2014-2015)

A.R. 96. Team A is on a 3 on 2 or a 2 on 3 fast break, and any player on Team B takes an initial guarding position (1) within the restricted area with two feet on the floor and facing the opponent, or (2) outside the restricted area with two feet on the floor and facing the opponent in an attempt to draw a player control/charging foul. A2, who is located outside the lower defensive box, receives a pass before making her move to the basket and crashes into the torso of the Team B player, and the official calls a player control/charging foul.

RULING: (1) The official is incorrect. The Team B player may not establish initial legal guarding position inside the restricted area when guarding a player who has the ball and was located outside the lower defensive box when she started her move to the basket, and the illegal contact by B is a blocking foul. (2) The official is correct. Even though the Team B player is initially a secondary defender, she did not establish initial guarding position inside the restricted area. When illegal contact occurs, it shall be a player control/charging foul. (Rule 4-30, 4-35.3 and 10-1.13)

This clip is literally this case book play save for it being a 4 v 3 fast break.

Adding to the fire
 

The other interesting thing about this play is they had to go to the monitor to figure out who the foul was on. Obviously the RA was not reviewable but they weren't sure of the player.

It seems like both officials had a lapse during the play. They were not sure who was going to come out with it and then they forgot to get the player.

This just reminded me why I hate the RA.

I agree with this. And what I think she's pointing at is the RA, not telling the L to "take it". As if to say to the L "You saw she was over the RA, right?" Then L comes out and bangs a charge. From outside her primary. Like others have said, just a guess on my part.

Mark, they're initially secondary defenders as far as the RA is concerned. Defenders on a fast break can always draw PC fouls as long as they establish LGP outside the RA.

I can't find the interp - which annoys me - but I remember being told they keep secondary defender status until the offense shoots or stops attacking the goal.

Not sure if there is a case play for this, but it is part of the definition. Try looking in the rule book instead of the case book.

Thanks. It's in 10-13. It doesn't specifically discuss fast breaks within the rule and that's where I got stuck in my search.

When I watch it the C looks very unsure. I think her point could be saying "was she in the RA? I can't tell". Could be wrong though.

Yup, she could be doing that too. Just a guess on my part.

This:

The pass does not negate the fast break.