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-   -   "Don't point fingers" (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/98628-dont-point-fingers.html)

bballref3966 Wed Nov 12, 2014 11:19pm

"Don't point fingers"
 
I follow a very well-respected official from Georgia on Twitter whose username is @RayTheRef. Today, he tweeted three tweets which caught my attention...

"What's up with the officials using the one-finger pointing? Why "buy into" this instead of using the Approved, Proper & Professional Signal?"

"One finger for Direction, One Finger for Counting, One Finger for Starting The Clock, One Finger for last minute, etc. No dignity. No pride."

"Weren't you taught as a child not to point? Some officials have gone for 4 fingers to 2 & now 1. I'm worried as to which one finger is next."


This is something that, for me, I've never really thought about, probably because my assigner really couldn't care less if I signal direction with one, two, or four fingers. I know that in high school the chart says to use four fingers, and I try to get in the habit of it. I also chop and count with a full hand.

My question is: is this something that your assigner(s) are strict about, is this something you think is a big deal?

JRutledge Wed Nov 12, 2014 11:33pm

Technically, the state cares. Is it a deal breaker? Nope.

Peace

Rich Thu Nov 13, 2014 12:06am

I'm not sure a lot of people care. His Twitter feed is amusing.

I'm a big fan of doing things right, but this guy sounds like it's a religion to him. :D

JRutledge Thu Nov 13, 2014 12:29am

Well he goes on and on about doing things right, but he never seems to say what level he is talking about. Many levels do not have mechanics that do what he suggests.

Peace

AremRed Thu Nov 13, 2014 12:46am

When you point at things in real life, do you use four fingers or one? Why should your pointing on the court be any different?

Honestly it varies state-by-state and official-by-official but my personal belief is simple: I don't give a crap about your "signal package" as long as you are communicating adequately. IMO the approved signals are not there to get everyone looking the same for posterity, they are there to provide a set of guidelines for clear communication as to what calls you are making. If my signals do the same job communicating what I have while looking stronger and selling my call better, I am going to use those better signals. Your mileage may vary.

AremRed Thu Nov 13, 2014 12:47am

An aside: I was recently discussing a play on the court during a timeout and pointed to the spot of the play. After the game one of my P's told me never to point when discussing a play -- people in the crowd might see it and think we are discussing something because we got it wrong. Is that something I should care about?

Freddy Thu Nov 13, 2014 03:56am

To the POINT
 
No problems when it's done by the book (cf. Faceless Pictograph Guy/Girl):
5-4-1.
5 - Upraised open hand subsequent to whistle for violation
4 - Direction play will resume
1 - Location of throw-in (used to be 2, but picto-graph guy changed last year)

A "deal-breaker"? Maybe not with all responsible authorities. But it's promoted as the standard for signaling and just looks good when everyone in the pool does it the same.

As to general pointing, no big deal.

Pointing to the bench of the team who fouled (the "Accusatory Point") when reporting to the table was branded "verboten" and considered unapproved several years ago.

Pointing at the spot of the violation when no approved signal is given is approved by the manual. Nothing impolite about that.

Raymond Thu Nov 13, 2014 08:21am

Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 943430)
An aside: I was recently discussing a play on the court during a timeout and pointed to the spot of the play. After the game one of my P's told me never to point when discussing a play -- people in the crowd might see it and think we are discussing something because we got it wrong. Is that something I should care about?

I've had a couple of mentors who are adamant about not pointing or doing any type of arm movements while having a discussion with partners, and especially with coaches.

bob jenkins Thu Nov 13, 2014 08:24am

If your assignor cares, you should care.

bballref3966 Thu Nov 13, 2014 08:42am

What about pointing to the offending player/coach after a T?

Raymond Thu Nov 13, 2014 09:35am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bballref3966 (Post 943438)
What about pointing to the offending player/coach after a T?

If T'ing a coach, I will point in the general direction of the coach/bench while looking at the table when I first signal the T. When I report it, I do so as I would any other foul.

Adam Thu Nov 13, 2014 09:49am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 943425)
Technically, the state cares. Is it a deal breaker? Nope.

Peace

Same here, and same with the assigner. It gets mentioned every year during meetings.

Kansas Ref Thu Nov 13, 2014 10:09am

I use two appressed fingers to indicate directionality. I've seen a few officials use the one finger to indicate directionality and I'm not a fan of it--as it just looks too shall I say "pedestrian" i.e., common place and not ascribed to a profession. But that is just me being pompous:D
Our manual shows an open hand to show direction, but I use an open hand with fingers appressed to indicate a violation.
Don't most of you think that using one finger is not a good look?

Raymond Thu Nov 13, 2014 10:28am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref (Post 943446)
...
Don't most of you think that using one finger is not a good look?

In this part of the country, especially at the college level, it's the norm to use 1 finger.

Rob1968 Thu Nov 13, 2014 10:32am

To each his own . . .
 
When I asked an official why he uses 2 fingers to indicate direction, he said "Because it looks stronger than 1 finger, why?" (did I ask)
When I replied that the manual shows a full hand - that is, all 4 fingers - which then, must be stronger than 2 fingers, he frowned, and had no further reply.
It's notable, in my area, that most of the higher ranked officials - those who consider themselves to be among the power elite - use 2 fingers. It seems that they do it because they feel that it sets them apart from the common, lower ranked officials, who just do what the manual indicates.

Bad Zebra Thu Nov 13, 2014 10:33am

Our state association has, in the past, emphasized the use of an open hand as opposed to one or two fingers for anything...pointing, counting, whatever. Their thinking is that:
1)That's the way the Fed has deemed appropriate and more importantly...
2)It's different than college mechanics.

One of the criteria they (State Association) like to use in selecting post season/tournament officials is the willingness to adopt high school mechanics when calling a high school game (as opposed to college mechanics). The use of the open hand is one indicator. Another mechanic...using one hand when reporting numbers, is another indicator. Another is the arm straight up when indicating a foul (as opposed to the "arm and hammer" in college)

The line of thinking is that "This is a high school game, you WILL use high school mechanics (regardless of your level of expertise)". It's been debated up and down the local ranks for years as to whether it should be an issue, but...in the end, if you want to be eligible for that elusive State High School Championship crew assignment...use the approved high school mechanics.

Rich Thu Nov 13, 2014 10:58am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob1968 (Post 943451)
When I asked an official why he uses 2 fingers to indicate direction, he said "Because it looks stronger than 1 finger, why?" (did I ask)
When I replied that the manual shows a full hand - that is, all 4 fingers - which then, must be stronger than 2 fingers, he frowned, and had no further reply.
It's notable, in my area, that most of the higher ranked officials - those who consider themselves to be among the power elite - use 2 fingers. It seems that they do it because they feel that it sets them apart from the common, lower ranked officials, who just do what the manual indicates.

I've started assigning for 21 high schools (for all sports) and I couldn't possibly care about stuff like this. Neither do my coaches. I just want guys in the right position who make the right calls.

One finger is fine as long as it isn't THAT finger.

I won't speak for my state office, cause I can't -- I know they're not as pedantic the one posted about above me, though.

JugglingReferee Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:01am

When I'm with younger officials, I look for them first to do it by the book. This tells me if they're coachable or not. Can they follow the documented standards?

Once they're a capable veteran, their style can come through and you might see 4 fingers down to 2.

Raymond Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:20am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee (Post 943454)
When I'm with younger officials, I look for them first to do it by the book. This tells me if they're coachable or not. Can they follow the documented standards?
....

That's what I always tell young guys, first prove you know how to do things by the book.

Welpe Thu Nov 13, 2014 12:04pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 943437)
If your assignor cares, you should care.

I think @raytheref is a pretty compelling force here...

stripes Thu Nov 13, 2014 12:55pm

You should obviously do what your assignor wants.

Beyond that, I highly doubt that anyone outside of the refereeing avocation notices how we point. They only (sometimes) notice that we do. As for stronger/weaker, etc. that is all a matter of personal opinion.

I agree with Rich. I am way more concerned with having partners who are in position and who consistently make good calls. I don't care how they point.

Welpe Thu Nov 13, 2014 12:55pm

I just checked out his Twitter feed. It's like a non-stop stream of camp speak or sales seminar jargon...hard to tell which but potentially it could be both.

Remember folks, coffee is for closers!

JRutledge Thu Nov 13, 2014 01:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob1968 (Post 943451)
When I asked an official why he uses 2 fingers to indicate direction, he said "Because it looks stronger than 1 finger, why?" (did I ask)
When I replied that the manual shows a full hand - that is, all 4 fingers - which then, must be stronger than 2 fingers, he frowned, and had no further reply.
It's notable, in my area, that most of the higher ranked officials - those who consider themselves to be among the power elite - use 2 fingers. It seems that they do it because they feel that it sets them apart from the common, lower ranked officials, who just do what the manual indicates.

I am a clinician with my state (which means that I am licensed to run camps for my state) and I can tell you I do not care that much about that kind of stuff. I might at best tell someone to use a full hand, but that is because I usually cannot find many things to talk about if that is my comment. Secondly, I have yet to see a single person with any extensive experience to give the signal for "Bonus free throw" which is signal #18. It looks stupid if that is your signal most of the time and most officials I know just hold each arm up with their index finger being used as if they were reporting in the NBA. And I rarely ever see someone give a "block" signal with both hands out and not with their fists. That last one is talked about a lot, but rarely talked about.

The overall point, most people never notice these things unless you have an officiating background and you wish to point it out. Just like no one knows our rotations or a missed rotation unless you have an officiating background. Never had a coach ever say, "You missed that rotation too."

Even signal #19 is relatively new and reflects what we were doing long before the book reflected that look. We used the kicking violation signal for years before it was in the book.

With all this being said, we only care about this stuff as officials and most officials do not are either way. If the people that hire us are more concerned about the idiosyncrasy of a signal, instead of getting plays right or communicating with partners or coaches, then I probably do not want to work for them in the first place.

Peace

Rich Thu Nov 13, 2014 01:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welpe (Post 943469)
I just checked out his Twitter feed. It's like a non-stop stream of camp speak or sales seminar jargon...hard to tell which but potentially it could be both.

Remember folks, coffee is for closers!

Seven minutes of Alec Baldwin. Yes, I went and watched.

Raymond Thu Nov 13, 2014 03:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 943471)
I am a clinician with my state (which means that I am licensed to run camps for my state) and I can tell you I do not care that much about that kind of stuff. ...

Peace

I had the privilege of being an observer at a D3 camp. One of the campers asked me a question about how to do his signals. I told him to do whatever he feels makes him look strongest on the court. If the supervisor or another observer comments on anything, then use that opportunity to show you can adjust and that you are coachable.

I'm in the mindset of "do what you do until someone tells you to do it differently."

APG Thu Nov 13, 2014 04:19pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref (Post 943446)
Don't most of you think that using one finger is not a good look?

I think using one or two fingers is a better look than four. Until I saw this on the board, I never knew that people were counting the fingers on the play pics and taking it as gospel as to how to indicate OOB or a designated spot.

Raymond Thu Nov 13, 2014 04:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by APG (Post 943489)
I think using one or two fingers is a better look than four. Until I saw this on the board, I never knew that people were counting the fingers on the play pics and taking it as gospel as to how to indicate OOB or a designated spot.

In training new officials, one of my HS associations is strict in following the signals from the manual.

I think it's good to instill discipline in newer officials. But as officials start to grow, such minutiae becomes less important--one man's opinion.

One signal detail that does bother me is when an official holds up his open-hand to bring in subs, but doesn't direct his/her palm towards the administering official. Just makes it look like they're walking around court with a hand up in the air with no purpose.

Rob1968 Fri Nov 14, 2014 09:25am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 943471)
With all this being said, we only care about this stuff as officials and most officials do not care either way. If the people that hire us are more concerned about the idiosyncrasy of a signal, instead of getting plays right or communicating with partners or coaches, then I probably do not want to work for them in the first place.

Peace

Jeff, I agree with you. My point is that the use of authorized signals, and being an excellent play caller, with a high level of judgement, and cuommunication, need not be mutually exclusive.

Rich Fri Nov 14, 2014 10:33am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 943490)
In training new officials, one of my HS associations is strict in following the signals from the manual.

I think it's good to instill discipline in newer officials. But as officials start to grow, such minutiae becomes less important--one man's opinion.

One signal detail that does bother me is when an official holds up his open-hand to bring in subs, but doesn't direct his/her palm towards the administering official. Just makes it look like they're walking around court with a hand up in the air with no purpose.

Every time I see a person put the open hand to the table, I have to laugh. Are you telling the sub to come in -- or stay there?


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