Shooter Draws Foul (Video)
 

Trying to get back into seeing more and more plays before the start of the season. What say ye? Incidental? Marginal? Illegal?

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Despite the cheap nature of the play an my wish that it be otherwise, it is a foul. Both were "responsible" for the contact but the defender is required to maintain LGP and he didn't.

I think I got nothing. The defender had returned to the floor before the small contact which I don't think had a bearing on the shot.

Nice One to Warm Up On
 

Was that a traveling violation prior to whatever contact did/did not occur?

I'm with JAR on this one. LBJ jumped into a stationary defender.

Traveling under any rule set other than NBA. I don't have a foul at any level, defender returns to the floor before contact occurs, which was initiated by offensive player.

Not much contact and defender seemed to hit ground before whatever contact there was. Lebron jumping around him almost. I let this one go.

If Lebron jumps into defender while defender is in air and moving towards him. (Mid air collision with more contact) I'd call the foul on defender.

As was mentioned earlier, Defender has to rise straight up. Think the play is in college case book.

This is a foul under ANY rule set you choose to use…Once the defender moves forward towards the shooter (whether while on the floor or in the air), he has lost LGP. The contact is his responsibility.

I have LBJ jumping into a defender that has already come back to the floor. I probably would pass on this if I saw this play clearly.

Peace

The defender stopped moving forward before the shooter left his feet. I don't know how the NBA works, but in high school, this looks like nothing to me. The defender is on the floor, straight up when the shooter leaves his feet.

I get where you are coming from. defender jumps forward, lands and is turned sideways. not in guarding position…defense is responsible for contact even when Lebron jumps in…
i'm not going to say that official is wrong under the rules for calling that a foul.
But on this play, in that circumstance, I want to see MORE contact. If Lebron gets a bigger piece of the guy when he jumps in then i will need to make a call and will call it on defense cause he is sideways etc. That is what I think about the play. thx

If you get to a spot first (considering any airborne or moving player issues)and are stationary, then it doesn't matter which way you face. LGP just gives you *extra* allowed movement.

Full plate: How to eat it . . . ?
 

Aside from what call you'd make, how 'bout some analysis of the coverage in the clip and the coverage you'd provide on a similar play?
If/when this play happens and you must make a call/no call, consider all that needs close scrutiny:
> defender's LGP or lack thereof
> ballhandler's possibility of traveling
> ballhandler's violation of defender's vertical, if LGP attained
> ballhandler's il/legal/marginal contact
> defender's il/legal/marginal contact
That's a full plate. Who's helping whom on this situation?
Is it correct that in this clip both C and T had a call on this, and C took it to the table?
If the play transitioned from T's backcourt to C's primary there, who should be looking at what? Would a travel be something the T would be looking for while C considered il/legal contact his priority, like between C and L in the post?
Any comments on the preferred coverage responsiblties here?

Bob, my thoughts….

if the defensive player steps into the path of the offensive player he is considered to be attempting to guard. to be legal he has to have both feet down….front of torso facing opponent. he can jump but must be in his vertical plane. If I'm dribbling and you step in my path sideways with your shoulder facing me and we crash i believe foul is on you even though you got to the spot first and were stationary. your torso didn't face me.

In the video, this defensive player is trying to guard Lebron. He "while in the path" of Lebron jumps up and forward. if he ever had LGP he lost it when he jumped forward out of his vertical plane. When he lands he is still "in the path" of Lebron. His feet are on the floor but his torso doesn't face Lebron. ( i don't think it did) I don't think he re established legal guarding position. the fact that his feet got down before contact isn't enough imo.

As i said i wouldn't call foul cause not enough contact. i don't think the defensive players positioning in the video is legal.

maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are trying to say---- thx

True, but in this case, I don't agree that the defender has stopped moving. He jumped forward quite a bit and, at best, he has one foot down when the first point of contact began and was still moving....thus he still required LGP.

The calling official had a great view of the play too....and had a foul.

1. The defender returned to the floor before contact occurred.
2. The shooter was as much the cause of contact as the defender.

I have no whistle.

More food for thought: from a Fed rules perspective, the rules state a defender must attain LGP by having both feet on the floor and the front part of the defender's torso must be facing the opponent.

The second criteria does not appear to have been met in this video.

I feel the defender had landed and stopped moving forward before the contact. However I don't want to debate that part. Assuming I am correct about that my question is the following. Is LGP, the direction the defender is facing, even an issue? I don't feel it is but would like to hear others thoughts.

It is an issue to establish LGP. Once established, it is not. So the Defender had LGP, jumped forward towards the defender (thus losing LGP), and does not appear to have regained/reestablished LGP because he was not facing his opponent with 2 feet on the ground.

A no call, in my opinion, would have to be based on a judgement that the contact was incidental as described in 4-27, not because the defender was in LGP.

What I'm saying is that does he even need legal guarding position if he beats the offensive player to the spot and is stationary.

What difference does LGP make
 

LGP appears in the rulebook in three places:

4.7.2, which concerns charging, and describes what an offensive player must do to avoid a charge when the defender has LGP.

4.23, which defines LGP and describes the extra privileges you get from LGP.

4.45, which says you must have LGP for verticality.

None of these apply to contact initiated by the offense. We've debated this many times before in the context of a dribbler running into the back of a defender that is running away from him, or other situations where the offense starts the contact. LGP just does not apply here.

What if Lebron had shoved him in the back to get clearance for the shot. Would we call a defensive foul because the defender did not have LGP?

Can anyone show me where it says that moving toward an opponent causes you to lose LGP? You just can't be moving forward at point of contact. I thought you could move forward as long as you stopped prior to contact.

Legal guarding definition says 2 feet down and torso facing opponent. Defender can jump vertically as long as he stays in his plane. Rule 4 sec 23 I think. When the defender leaves the ground and is in the air flying forward he is not in his plane. He no longer has legal guarding position. When he lands he is still "in the path" of Lebron. When he is in lebrons path he has the right to stand sideways but since he is in the path he has to turn and face Lebron also. Must establish legal guarding position. If there is contact, even caused by Lebron when the defender is turned sideways, the responsibility is on the defender because he didn't get back into legal guarding position. He was standing in Lebrons path. Under the guarding rule that is guarding. He has to meet the rules to be legal. 2 feet and torso.

I didn't understand the post that said LGP doesn't apply when offense creates contact. Offense creates much contact. If I'm dribbling to the basket and you step in my path with your body sideways--You get yourfeet set and your not moving. But you are sideways. I crash into you just after your feet get down and stationary. I dribbled into you and created that contact. I still think that is a foul on you because you stepped into my path but didn't meet all requirements to be legal. You didn't turn your torso at me.

As I said earlier, I consider the fact that quarter winding down, defender does get feet down, Lebron jumps sideways and really doesn't create much contact and not a real effort to make the shot. I pass on calling it because of all those factors. I could justify calling a foul based on everything else said about LGP but I wouldn't do it.

Final thought, offense is allowed to move forward, dribble, run, jump towards its basket. If defender wants to or gets into offenses path he has to do it legally. If the defender just has to get his feet down and be stationary why is the torso stuff in the rule? And if Lebron halls off and shoves the player not in legal guarding position the foul is on Lebron because the type of contact he created, shove with arm, is not legal. My thoughts. Could be missing it all...thx

I don't have a foul on this play.

You're right. it doesn't, you don't lose LGP for moving forward unless there is contact while moving forward.

But if he doesn't meet the requirement of LGP, he must still meet the requirements of screening.

It is illegal to jump in front of a moving opponent without either having LGP or allowing time and distance. LGP just allows a much later arrival to the spot (among other things).

So if I am right about him still having LGP, he is back down to the floor before the offense jumps and creates contact. He still has LGP albeit he closed the gap to basically nothing. I think the referee got this played confused with the similar play where the offense does a pump fake and gets the defense to jump forward and then the shooter then jumps into the defense which is of course a defensive foul. I don't think the official in this play liked his call after he made it and especially after reviewing it on film.

I have a no call on this play.

Under NBA rules, this defender does not have a legal guarding position.

Nonetheless, the official in this play has to decide if the defender's forward momentum had stopped after he landed prior to contact with the offensive player.

NBA Case Book (2013-2014)

268. Offensive Player A1 pump fakes Defender B1 on the perimeter. B1 jumps towards A1 and lands prior to contact when A1 naturally jumps forward. Is this an offensive
foul?

If Defender B1 lands and his forward movement stops, an offensive foul should be assessed if the contact initiated by A1 is more than marginal. If the contact is marginal, no foul has been committed. If there is contact prior to B1 landing or if B1’s momentum is still going forward after landing, a defensive foul has occurred.
RULE 12B - SECTION VII

I don't see that the defender stopped moving forward prior to contact. He maybe got 1 foot down but he didn't come to a stop yet.

The official has perfect position and had nothing else to look at. It may have been close and some might choose not to call a foul but I doubt he wanted it back.

When screening a stationary opponent from front the screener must stop anywhere short of contact.

When screening a moving opponent, the screener must allow the opponent time and distance to avoid contact. The speed of the player screened will determine where the screener may take his stationary position.

Lebron was either stationary or moving very slowly when the "screen" took place. Since Lebron attempted to make contact and still made very little I think he was allowed time and distance to avoid the contact. I don't feel these were violated. Your thoughts please. Also I am looking at this from the NFHS side of things. thanks

The light is flickering in my head now. I see what you are saying, i think…

1. Legal guarding position says i can be anywhere short of contact of a ball handler if I have two feet down and torso facing ball handler. I don't have to give ball handler time or distance to avoid contact. If I try to jump in at last second while he is dribbling i need to meet those two requirements.

2. a defender who is stationary can face any direction---doesnt need torso turned etc--- as long as the offensive player had time to avoid him he is ok. time and distance must be given.

in the video the defender jumps in the air forward. he loses LGP when he does that. doesn't maintain verticality. he lands sideways. this is not LGP. he doesn't get LGP back. However, if he is stationary when he lands and you determine that Lebron had time and distance to avoid him but chose not to---jumped in--it does not matter that defender didn't have LGP.

the defender is entitled to his spot on the floor. thx

Almost. A player with LGP can also, after obtaining it, face any direction...no time/distance required before contact. A defender in LGP can turn any direction they wish. It may not be useful or advisable, but they can. It is usually seen in the case of an imminent big crash where they turn to protect themselves from the impact.

Also, the jump forward doesn't, by itself, negate LGP nor does turning sideways (in the NFHS). As long as the defender remains 'in the path", only contact while moving forward negates LGP. So, if the defender, with LGP, stops moving forward before any contact, they will have had LGP the entire time and will keep LGP.

I agree with paragraph one. hung up on why the jump outside the vertical plane does not negate LGP---make him establish it again. we know he can move laterally/obliquely as long as not moving forward when contact occurs cause rule says that. When it comes to jumps it says defender has to stay in vertical plane. If he jumps out of vertical plane he is doing something rule says he shouldn't do after getting initial LGP. it is not a foul when he jumps forward without any contact obviously. but when he hits after jumping out of plane shouldn't he have to get both feet down and torso facing again? i mention sideways cause if he jumps forward and lands with feet down and torso facing offense he does have a new lgp.

i'm getting there. not quite yet.

You seem to think that LGP must (always) be required. It's not.

Suppose the defender made the exact same move, but did so when the offensive player was at half court. The defender remains in that position, as the offense dribbles forward for 20' (or whatever) and then makes the same contact. No LGP, but clearly no foul on the defense.

Now, what if the distance was 10'? 5'? 3' but the offense was not moving until after the defender came down?

Now, does anything like that apply to this play? That's where the disagreement is.

Because the rule only determines what's required to establish LGP. Nowhere does it say movement towards the shooter eliminates LGP; only that LGP doesn't protect you from contact made while moving towards the shooter.

The difference is, this means he doesn't have to "re-establish LGP," which would mean more stringent requirements than simply maintaining it.

Bob, if you look at my post before last i get that LGP isn't always required. defender is entitled to space on floor. if he meets time and distance requirements he can be sideways if stationary etc. i agree with your example.

what I'm not sure that i agree with is that once you get LGP you can JUMP out of your vertical plane and when you land, even sideways, still be considered to be in LGP.

again, i get if time and distance met i don't have to be in LGP. I'm just now talking about that one statement. thx for replying

Jumping out of the vertical plane is just another way to say moving toward the opponent. That's it. If there is no contact while the player is moving forward/jumping forward, then there is no impact on LGP. It it was obtained previously, it is maintained. Then, IF there is contact while doing so, LGP is lost because of the combination of contact and the direction of movement.

I was thinking this while reading all the posts. I thought verticality only comes into play when it comes to contact.

I get it. I always think of maintaining guarding as moving laterally or slanted/obliquely. Heres play that you never really see but bothers me to think foul would be on offense.
You are coming down the paint dribbling. I'm 10 feet away with feet on floor torso etc. when distance gets to six I jump at you and turn sideways in the air. Or I run at you and turn sideways. I land and stop a split second before you crash into my shoulder. Train wreck. You had no chance to stop.

Under the definitions, I had legal guarding position. I can jump at you spin in air at last second and if I stop foul on you. Just isn't natural call for me....I would like to see the defense have to get squared up again if I move or jump at offense and stop at a point at which offense can't avoid them.

There's plenty of time to stop if the dribbler is bearing down. There's nothing about the spin here that's advantageous to the defender, and as was noted previously, the only time you really see it in live action is when the defender is bracing for an imminent train crash. Too many coaches think the defender has to be square on contact, when that's not the case at all.