Lane Violations
 

(#1) Scenario: A1 is fouled by B1 as a common foul and Team A is in the 1-1 bonus. (a) After A1 has the ball for the foul shot, the official recognizes that A2 and A3 are occupying the 1st 2 lane spots and (b) After A1 has successfully made his 1st free throw the official recognizes that A2 and A3 are occupying the 1st 2 lane spots. Are both of these scenarios violations? I say 'yes' and A1 loses the 1-1 opportunity.

(#2) Now that the rule change has been made for NFHS to coincide w/the NCAA - may leave the spot on the 'release', may a defender in the Lane spots # 2 perform a 'spin move' once the ball is released? I believe not, since I recall that a rule was made that these defenders must come 'straight in' and not be allowed to go around the # 1 spots.

Rule/Case Book references would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

#1a, yes, that is a violation.
#1b, Live ball entered the basket....shot counts...ball dead....official observes A2 and A3 in the wrong spot(s)....too late.\

#2, no such rule. They can go any direction they want.

If You Recall It, It Must Be Correct
 

Didn't they call that a violation in "Hoosiers"?

Well, I have heard partners and even people hear make such a suggestion.

Half an answer to OP questions: References for this question are 9-1-3d,e,g and 9.1COMMENT.

Just a quick question. This is an innocent question -- not intended to be critical or harsh. Do you have a current rulebook and casebook? If so, I was just wondering why you'd be unable to find references relevant to this question. Is it because this exact "spin move" is not mentioned anywhere in the rulebook or casebook? Or don't you have books? And if you don't have books, why ask for the rulebook a casebook references? Just wonderin'. Trying to increase in understanding. Curious, that's all. Really.

Does this mean that B1 and B2 were in the second spots? ;)

Will that affect the subsequent administration?

Just a quick reply......just curious, isn't this a 'learning' board where we as officials can collaborate and share questions/answers on rules and situations. Folks who level 'judgement' on others as far as having possession of rule books and membership implications have nothing better to do....if this makes you feel better - go for it !

Now for the real answer - I appreciate others who have directed me to the correct area of the Rule book ( and I quote ) - (Rule 9. Rule 1 Art 3.g) '....No player shall enter a marked lane space OR leave a marked lane space by contacting the court outside the 36-inch by 36-inch space until the ball is released..'

This then answers the question that the 'spin move' is legal as long as the player leaves the marked lane space AFTER the ball is released !

Many Thanks for the reference !

Wow. I guess my well-intended disclaimers didn't work. :(

BTW, I am the "others" who directed you there.
And you're more than welcome. Nice to be appreciated. That's why we're here. :)

The so-called spin move is not addressed in the rule book. And if you want somebody to take time to research citations and rules for you don't cop a juvenile attitude because you are asked an innocuous and simple question about your own assess to the same references

Someone who has been on this forum for 6 1/2 years should be able to look up a rule. The rule is listed in the rule changes so it's not difficult to find. Therefore, it does make others wonder whether you own a rule book or case book.

Just a note, it's makes no difference what kind of move he makes, he can't move until AFTER the release.

NOTE: Summer camps featured more of this tactic than I'd ever seen before. It seems to be perceived that there is more time available to gain an advantage from not only the "spin move" around the lower block player, but also the "step back and try to cut around move." Neither, by the way, seemed to be overly effective for that second space player anyway. Just my take on it. Others may report differently.

The Times They Are A-Changin' (Bob Dylan, 1964) ...
 

My post (below) is not in direct reference to bd41flpk's, and Freddy's (do we have a more friendly Forum member?) posts in this thread, but, instead, is more of a general post, in reference to past threads containing statements regarding whether a poster has possession of a rulebook, or not, and whether, or not, one can simply look up the answer on their own, and if not, why not (excluding answers to test questions).

It is my understanding that this Forum is not only for basketball officials. There's no velvet rope, and bouncer. While most "members" are probably basketball officials, that will have easy access to rulebooks and casebooks, I'm pretty sure that some "members" may be coaches, players, or fans, with limited access to rulebooks and casebooks. The percentage of "guests", who only participate by reading posts, that are not officials, and who might not have access to rulebooks and casebooks, is probably a lot higher than "members".

When I posted this, there were twenty-five "guests" on the Forum, and only two "members". While we have no responsibility to "guests", and nonofficial "members", to provide accurate rule interpretations that most, but not all, can simply look up, doesn't it help the game of basketball if these "guests", and nonofficial "members", have easy access to accurate rule interpretations, and citations, from experts (aren't basketball officials supposed to be the guardians of the game?), like ourselves.

Yes, there is a certain amount of truth to the old adage about "teaching a man to fish". But this is now the twenty-first century, and many now consider the internet, and forums like this, to be a reference, even to those (officials) with access to rulebooks and casebooks, just as all of us old timers once considered only a rulebook and casebook, made out of dead trees, to be a reference just a few short years ago.

Telling a Forum member, who doesn't own a rulebook and casebook, or a non-Forum-member, who may not be a basketball official, who doesn't own a rulebook or casebook, but who may be interested in a rule interpretation, to "look it up" may be helpful only to those who actually own a rulebook and casebook, and would be of limited value to those who don't, especially to those nonmembers "lurking" quietly in the background, who are not "posters". Check the numbers at the bottom of the page. We have a lot of these "lurkers". Telling such a "lurker" that the answer can be found in citation 4-6, and 4.6, is of absolutely no help to many (but not all) "lurkers".

Now can somebody please help me down from this soapbox? It's kind of scary up here, and I don't want to get hurt before the season begins. C'mon Freddy? Give a brother official a hand. You seem friendly enough.

Billy, I would think coaches have access to rule books.

And there is a huge difference between TELLING someone to look it up and ASKING them if they have access to reference materials.

Cheap Coaches ...
 

Access? Yes. Everybody has access to NFHS publications. But do they purchase them? Back when I was coaching, our athletic director would purchase a rulebook, a casebook, and an illustrated rulebook, for every head coach, in every sport, every year. Then the school's athletic budget got slashed. Let's see? Rulebooks, or reconditioned football helmets?

Rose Colored Glasses ...
 

I can't disagree with you, however, in this modern digital age, many would consider this Forum to be a reference material. Do we have a responsibility to give "full" citations (the actual words) on this Forum? My answer would be no. Should we? I believe the answer to be yes, but that's only my opinion of what I would like the Forum to be (a dependable, easily accessible, reference), but I'm just a member, an esteemed member, but, nevertheless, just a member (I'm not Sy Sperling. How's that for an obscure reference?).

http://youtu.be/aHpZPaQB9KE

Billy:

You use to be part of the Dark Side! I am shocked! Boy, you think you know people and then you discover this! :p Welcome back from the Dark Side.

MTD, Sr.

At least in my state, my understanding is the schools get rulebooks similar to the officials (which are sent bi-yearly). If coaches do not read them, that is on them. And if it is a budget issue to by a book that might be no more than $8 for a sport you participate in, that is sad. And that is especially the truth when many decisions about equipment and other playing issues would be affected if you do not even know what is allowed or not allowed.

Peace

My take: If "you're" an official, then take the time to look it up yourself. You never know what else you'll find. If "you're" a fan (or a dad helping out at the youth level, etc.), then ask away -- we're glad to have more knowledgeable fans. And, of course, there can be exceptions to both of those -- if "you're" an official, it helps to explain that in the post.

Not Your Father's Buick ...
 

Why can't a twenty-first century question be "looked up" on websites such as this Forum. There is certainly value to perusing a dead tree rulebook, and casebook, and finding "gems" that one might not be looking for, but this can also be accomplished by perusing this Forum, as many of us do on a daily, or at least, weekly basis, especially during the basketball season.

"looking it up" and "asking for the answer" aren't the same thing.

And, I didn't say he had to use a "dead tree" rulebook.

Efficiency ...
 

I got a few questions wrong on my IAABO Refresher Exam. I am currently in the process of triple checking my incorrect answers. In a few cases I made a stupid error, i.e., not noting the difference between a player technical foul, and a team technical foul. I already know that I will be coming to the Forum on a few questions where I won't be able to find the answer in my rulebook, or casebook. I won't be able to find the answer because it's not in the books, I won't be able to find the answer because, well because, it's just not apparent to me where the answer is (forest through the trees), and it won't be to lack of trying. I already know all the correct answers, I just want to know why I got them wrong.

Once I narrow down my incorrect answers to the point where I don't know why I got them wrong, I will be "looking up the answers" (answers to my questions about why I got some questions wrong) by utilizing all the basketball rules experts here on the Forum. Hopefully I won't have Forum members telling me to "look it up yourself", or questioning whether I have a rulebook, or not. My plan is to post these questions later today (I know that one will be on a correctable error during an unmerited free throw, with said free throw involving a common foul).

It's the twenty-first century. There are more efficient ways of doing things now then there were a short twenty years ago. Embrace the Digital Age (If I can do this in my seventh decade on this planet, then I'm sure that others can do it as well). Knowing how to use the Forum as a resource is part (and not just the only part) of "learning to fish".

(Note: "Asking for (the) answers" one through seventy-five (Yes. No. Yes. Yes ...) on a refresher exam, even an open book refresher exam, is not part of "learning to fish". It's unethical, certainly here in my little corner of Connecticut, and probably almost everywhere else.)

What is this digital age thing you speak of? Does that have something to do with your hands feeling older than the rest of your body (perhaps due to a lack of use of Palmolive) leaving you unable to embrace small objects as easily as in your younger days?

I Know Raisins With Fewer Wrinkles ...
 

Will using Palmolive make me look younger?

While I have access to rule books, case books, etc, oftentimes I try to answer questions without looking the answer up. After all, if something happens during a game I can't just reach into my back pocket and look up the proper call/non-call.

And while my rule and case books are within a few feet of me right now, I don't always have them readily available when someone cites them. So I appreciate an answer that's more than "it's in Rule 9.yada, yada, yada."

Even though it can be annoying that answers can easily be looked up, it's not like we're all here to take part in a closed-book exam. How about helping people out, while trying to make sure you're not doing so in a condescending manner?

We're not all 30+ year officials who, outside of a rule change every once in a while, know the rule and case books inside-out.

I Don't Do Stairs, Unless I Have To ...
 

My rulebook, casebook, and mechanics manual, are often a few rooms away from my computer, in my bedroom closet, in my official's bag. During the season, the books are usually in my bag, in the back seat of my car, downstairs in the garage.

I have a PDF rulebook, and casebook, on my computer hard drive, but they're from 2011-12, and are becoming dated. I think that they are actually giving off a odd, musty, smell inside my computer.

Over thirty-plus years, it's the rule changes that became more confusing. I was actually less confused back when I was a rookie official. Let's see? One free throw for a technical foul? That doesn't sound right? Double foul? I know that's it's no longer a jump ball. Arrow, or point of interruption? How much time to replace a disqualified player? Twenty seconds? Are you sure it's not thirty seconds?

Hey BryanV21: I note that you're from Columbus, Ohio. The next time that Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. decides to give us all a history lesson going back to Dr. James Naismith, Emilia Earhart, and William Howard Taft, would you please take a short drive up Route 30 to Toledo and give him a slap in the head from me.

Just to make sure... I didn't intend that post for anyone in particular.

And if you pay for gas. I'm there.

We can't tell from the example if they were or weren't in the second spots. However, it does not matter. When the offensive players occupy the first spots it is a double violation. A, the offense, has violated for BEING IN the first spots. B, the defense, has violated for NOT BEING IN the first spots as required. The possession arrow determines who gets the ball.

Agreed in scenario - (a) After A1 has the ball for the foul shot, the official recognizes that A2 and A3 are occupying the 1st 2 lane spots

(1) On a 1-1 or the 2nd of a 2-shot foul, this is a 'double violation' and the possession is determined by the AP arrow.

(2) On the 1st of a 2-shot foul, A1 loses the shot and then proceed to the 2nd shot and make sure that Team B (defense) occupies the (2) bottom lane spots?

Make sense?

Side note: I hate how a double violation with more FTs to follow leads to, essentially, no penalty on the defense.

Solution: Use the arrow. If the arrow favors the shooting team, they get the shot but lose the arrow. If the arrow favors the defense, the offense loses the shot. Either way, change the arrow as soon as the ball becomes live after that.

Solution: Violations that come as a result of players lining up in the wrong spots is ignored if more free throws are to follow.

That's half a solution. It's not the only possible double FT violation.

First of three, B5, behind the shooter, steps into the arc.
A1 shoots an airball.

Although I will say the only double violation I've ever called wouldn't be a violation now (A1 shoots, B1 leaves early, shot misses everything).