Freedom of Movement 10-6-12

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Will this ultimately be treated differently than a lot of other things in the book? Enforcement/interpretation of a rule varies tremendously from game to game and official to official. The biggest problem I have here is the conflict between the black and white language of the rule and the concept of advantage/disadvantage. Late in the game with fouls to give B1 can body up aggressively. If A1 starts to turn the corner on him just give a couple of quick touches and the play starts over again. Or will this raise the question of calling intentional for the two quick touches?

Funny, but we didn't have a whole lot of "yeah, but..." conversations about the guidelines when they told us to call them in NCAAW last year. The rule says the second touch is a foul. Period. There's no time element. There's no worry about whether B1 does it just for the sake of not being beat on a drive. There's no RSBQ, at least when it comes to this rule.

The fact enforcement/interpretation varies from game to game and official to official is why they put the guidelines in effect in the first place. The goal is to get rid of those variances because we (collectively) hadn't been doing a great job using our judgment. If everyone just follows the letter of the law as opposed to trying to figure out the "intent" or "spirit" of the rule on their own, the rule works. If we as a collective don't do that it all goes into the toilet. It's that simple.

As to the idea of calling an intentional foul because B1 puts two quick touches on A1 when A1 beats them on a move, 4-19-3a & c are really the only rules that could be applied and both might be considered a stretch. Let's not turn simple math into calculus. If B1 wants to do that, (s)he will be able to do that a maximum of five times. My guess is B1's HC will have them sitting for a while if (s)he pulls that move more than once unless it's an end-of-game situation.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Funny, but we didn't have a whole lot of "yeah, but..." conversations about the guidelines when they told us to call them in NCAAW last year. The rule says the second touch is a foul. Period. There's no time element. There's no worry about whether B1 does it just for the sake of not being beat on a drive. There's no RSBQ, at least when it comes to this rule.

Agreed.

RSBQ comes into play on judging the first touch, not any subsequent touch.

Judgment comes in on deciding whether an arm bar is collapsed or extended, or exacly when a player has moved from a "post player" to a "ball handler" (that latter distinction is not relevant in FED).

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Agreed.

RSBQ comes into play on judging the first touch, not any subsequent touch.

Judgment comes in on deciding whether an arm bar is collapsed or extended, or exacly when a player has moved from a "post player" to a "ball handler" (that latter distinction is not relevant in FED).

The post player becomes a ball handler as soon as they possess the ball.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by OKREF

The post player becomes a ball handler as soon as they possess the ball.

Correct in FED, not correct in NCAAW, which is why I said "that latter distinction is not relevant in FED"

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Correct in FED, not correct in NCAAW, which is why I said "that latter distinction is not relevant in FED"

Wasn't trying to argue, my bad.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Funny, but we didn't have a whole lot of "yeah, but..." conversations about the guidelines when they told us to call them in NCAAW last year. The rule says the second touch is a foul. Period. There's no time element. There's no worry about whether B1 does it just for the sake of not being beat on a drive. There's no RSBQ, at least when it comes to this rule.

The fact enforcement/interpretation varies from game to game and official to official is why they put the guidelines in effect in the first place. The goal is to get rid of those variances because we (collectively) hadn't been doing a great job using our judgment. If everyone just follows the letter of the law as opposed to trying to figure out the "intent" or "spirit" of the rule on their own, the rule works. If we as a collective don't do that it all goes into the toilet. It's that simple.

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Agreed.

RSBQ comes into play on judging the first touch, not any subsequent touch.

Judgment comes in on deciding whether an arm bar is collapsed or extended, or exactly when a player has moved from a "post player" to a "ball handler" (that latter distinction is not relevant in FED).

Thank you gentlemen, particularly bob since he has clarified that most of Illinois too is on the same page and that there are only a few that will do their own thing.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Thank you gentlemen, particularly bob since he has clarified that most of Illinois too is on the same page and that there are only a few that will do their own thing.

I am not sure this statement is entirely true. In Illinois, we starting using these four absolutes last year, just like the NCAA. However, In the meetings I attended, including one conducted by the head clinician for the IHSA, we were told to call these fouls like the NCAA-M. I did not realize until this thread that there was a difference in the wording between NCAA-M and NCAA-W, and what the NFHS has put into effect this season. Remember, as I pointed out to JetMet earlier, the NCAA-M has the modifier, continually, in its wording, which is not present in the NCAA-W or the new NFHS rule. Therefore, the touches separated by time/distance would not necessarily be automatics using the NCAA-M version of the rule. Therefore, for last season at least, I would say JRut was right in his interpretation of the rule. Perhaps in Bob's area of IL, they were told different. My association will not have its meeting with the head clinician until Oct. 30th. It will be interesting to see what he says now that the NFHS wording is published and matches the NCAA-W. Until then, I will withhold judgment on whether Bob or JRut has presented how the IHSA wants this rule enforced.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Thank you gentlemen, particularly bob since he has clarified that most of Illinois too is on the same page and that there are only a few that will do their own thing.

First of all, Illinois has not come out with any different statement, language or interpretation about how the game is to be called this year as opposed to last year. I will say this one more time, this was already a POE specifically in Illinois (not with the NF) where they wanted us to mirror and use RSBQ and the now new NF rules language. We have not had our Video Rules Meeting published yet, which will be posted on the 28th of this month. We have not been told as clinicians anything different (and we were given information this summer to teach). Bob does not speak for what Illinois does or does not do and neither do I. I just have the ear of those based on my position and try to make sure I am sharing the same message. And there are many others that spoke openly as Rules Interpreters (who are also clinicians in every case, but are allowed to be on the video or run a meeting in certain cases) stated the same thing. And they did so with the blessing of the IHSA. At this point the information that has been given or used up until this date of October 18th, nothing has changed.

Now if you would like, I was considering going to a meeting where the Boy's basketball administrator will be speaking this weekend and I can ask him has our interpretation changed. I know he will give me an answer as he has in the past and knows who I am from my other work with the IHSA. But at this point, I really do not care what NCAA says about this issue and I work NCAA Men's games. All I know is that what was in the actual literature by the IHSA was not different than Men's basketball. And as Johnny stated, I was unaware there was any difference in Men's and Women's interpretation until I read and had conversations with a few Women's officials in our state try to make distinctions with what takes place in the post or what takes place after an initial touch.

All I know, is this conversation is as usual, entertaining, but means nothing to what we do here. If the IHSA wants this called, they will state that is the case. If that is not the case, they will not mention it at all. I do not anticipate any changes based on recent conversations. But I will report it if it has. But I doubt they are going to throw away everything they talked about last year and yes, Rhythm, Speed, Balance and Quickness were specifically referenced in the IHSA interpretation. And I had many games on video and streaming live games and if the IHSA did not like how I called the game, they could have made that clear with my assignments or sent me some information about my interpretation. Well I have one very important measure for how I called the game must be viewed by the powers that be.

Peace

[JRutledge]

I also went back and looked at the Webinar from the IHSA that addressed basketball concerns they wanted addressed.

There is a PowerPoint slide in the presentation from the NF and Referee Magazine and has "Point of Emphasis" as apart of the slide and uses this sentence with three examples of Illegal Contact. This line is used below.

"Contact that impedes rhythm, speed, balance and quickness on the offense or defensive player should be called."

Here is the presentation. Look at pages 33 and 34.

NF Basketball PowerPoint 2013-2014

I love people from Missouri.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I also went back and looked at the Webinar from the IHSA that addressed basketball concerns they wanted addressed.

There is a PowerPoint slide in the presentation from the NF and Referee Magazine and has "Point of Emphasis" as apart of the slide and uses this sentence with three examples of Illegal Contact (Handchecking, Displacement and Player Control, three illustrations) and it says:

"Contact that impedes rhythm, speed, balance and quickness on the offense or defensive player should be called."

Doesn't everyone know that this contact should be called? Isn't it possible that the point of this sentence was to emphasize that the new rule was not now the only contact that should be called?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Doesn't everyone know that this contact should be called? Isn't it possible that the point of this sentence was to emphasize that the new rule was not now the only contact that should be called?

I do not know what everyone knows. I just know that what I stated was obviously more than a personal interpretation.

Booom!!!!

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I also went back and looked at the Webinar from the IHSA that addressed basketball concerns they wanted addressed.

There is a PowerPoint slide in the presentation from the NF and Referee Magazine and has "Point of Emphasis" as apart of the slide and uses this sentence with three examples of Illegal Contact (Handchecking, Displacement and Player Control, three illustrations) and it says:



Here is the presentation.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/f3pfembej4...-2014.ppt?dl=0

Peace

I don't disagree with that. That is always true. But that isn't all the fouls we are to call.

Or, from a different angle...they're telling us that they have decided that two hands on, one hand continuously on, etc. always affect RSBQ whether you can tell it or not.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I don't disagree with that. That is always true. But that isn't all the fouls we are to call.

Or, from a different angle...they're telling us that they have decided that two hands on, one hand continuously on, etc. always affect RSBQ whether you can tell it or not.

Let me try this again. I never said that two hands on a ball handler was not a foul. Actually extended arms in my opinion are fouls pretty much every time when both hands are on the ball handler. I know in Illinois, it was talked about in situations where hands might touch a ball handler, but are not extended or are retreating as not fitting in these guidelines which are now rules.

Peace

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I don't disagree with that. That is always true. But that isn't all the fouls we are to call.

Or, from a different angle...they're telling us that they have decided that two hands on, one hand continuously on, etc. always affect RSBQ whether you can tell it or not.

Agree with this 100%. Instead of our judgement deciding if the 4 absolutes affected RSBQ, the NFHS has decided that the 4 absolutes affect RSBQ no matter what.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

The fact enforcement/interpretation varies from game to game and official to official is why they put the guidelines in effect in the first place. The goal is to get rid of those variances because we (collectively) hadn't been doing a great job using our judgment. If everyone just follows the letter of the law as opposed to trying to figure out the "intent" or "spirit" of the rule on their own, the rule works. If we as a collective don't do that it all goes into the toilet. It's that simple.

I think I agree with this above all else in this thread.

The guy who brought up the closely guarded idea I said earlier was a college official who also does high school. He said they were told to allow a "measure up" touch and that any other touch while closely guarded was a foul. If not closely guarded then the next touch is like a first touch.