Freedom of Movement 10-6-12

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

From post #46 (I think)...these are your words:

"If one touch happens in the back court and then 20 feet later there is a touch in the front court with a chasing defender, I am not calling that a foul just because there was a second touch."

So you did put distances and locations into this discussion...

No, distance and location were put in by JMF (post #24) as an example of what the NCAA-W wants called as a foul. And he has made the assumption that the NFHS wants the same interpretation. This is why I asked if anybody had actually posted something from the NFHS. If that's what the NFHS wants, I have no problem with it. But so far, I haven't seen it. And as we can see by this thread, there are at least 3 officials who work NCAA-M's ball who, based on our experiences, do not have the same interpretation as the NCAA-W.

[The_Rookie]

Let me add another wrinkle that has come my at meetings...

East-West versus North South....

Are you calling it any differently if ball handler is moving east west versus north south?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by The_Rookie

Let me add another wrinkle that has come my at meetings...

East-West versus North South....

Are you calling it any differently if ball handler is moving east west versus north south?

We had someone from Referee at one of our meetings and let's just say he's very close to the process. He told us:

(1) There's no time element
(2) E-W vs. N-S doesn't matter
(3) There's no difference with respect to a player and where he has the ball. If he has the ball in the post, for example, and there's two touches or a touch with two hands, or an extended forearm -- it is a foul.

I expect there will be further clarification on all this. At least I hope there will be. Still, everything is local. A state's wishes will supersede the NFHS's 100% of the time.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Not that I am surprised, but you not seem to read these post long before that comment. And then I commented on my position right afterwards.



I know, only focus on my comments.

Peace

To both you and BNR...

I never said you were the first, or the only, one to insert a distance factor into the discussion. But your claim that you hadn't put distance in was wrong. You did put a distance factor into the discussion.

So again for both you and BNR...what is the maximum distance at which you will no longer call a second touch a foul?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

...

So again for both you and BNR...what is the maximum distance at which you will no longer call a second touch a foul?

I'll know it when I see it. More than likely, whether it's the first or second touch, I'll be judging each touch on it's own merits unless I consider the multiple touches as "hot stove" touching. But what about:

Originally Posted by just another ref

Like Rut, I actually have a problem with "2 touches = foul PERIOD" Conceivably there could be 2 touches by the same defender on the same ballhandler 2 minutes and 80 feet apart, with neither touch alone amounting to anything, but...........

How come it is common sense not to call this as a foul? At what time and distance is common sense eliminated and a foul shall be called?

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

No, distance and location were put in by JMF (post #24) as an example of what the NCAA-W wants called as a foul. And he has made the assumption that the NFHS wants the same interpretation. This is why I asked if anybody had actually posted something from the NFHS. If that's what the NFHS wants, I have no problem with it. But so far, I haven't seen it. And as we can see by this thread, there are at least 3 officials who work NCAA-M's ball who, based on our experiences, do not have the same interpretation as the NCAA-W.

I promised myself I wouldn't make any more posts in this thread but as with Michael Corleone "just when I thought I was out... they pull me back in"

NCAAM's 10.1.4 (at least part of it) is worded differently than NCAAW's so of course we're going to have different viewpoints. However, my view is based on the fact the wording in the NFHS and NCAAW rules regarding the second touch is the same, i.e., it's a foul.

Originally Posted by Rich

We had someone from Referee at one of our meetings and let's just say he's very close to the process. He told us:

(1) There's no time element
(2) E-W vs. N-S doesn't matter
(3) There's no difference with respect to a player and where he has the ball. If he has the ball in the post, for example, and there's two touches or a touch with two hands, or an extended forearm -- it is a foul.

I expect there will be further clarification on all this. At least I hope there will be. Still, everything is local. A state's wishes will supersede the NFHS's 100% of the time.

None of this surprises me and thankfully the post element was clarified by Theresia Wynns in the latest Referee. You're right in that states are going to do what they want to do but there are only a certain number of changes states are supposed to be able to adopt and only one of them comes under Rule 10 (10.5.1 - the coaching box). Here's to hoping more clarification is on the way.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I'll know it when I see it. More than likely, whether it's the first or second touch, I'll be judging each touch on it's own merits ...

Isn't that exactly what the NF is trying to get rid of? Your "I'll know it when I see it" is different from your partners, and the next crew, and the next, etc...

So make it simple...a second touch with the same or alternate hands is a foul. And voila - there is no need to judge each touch on it's own merits - a second touch is a foul. Don't do it. They get the message really quickly.

2 minutes apart? Seriously? When was the last game you worked where one kid dribbled for 2 minutes?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Isn't that exactly what the NF is trying to get rid of? Your "I'll know it when I see it" is different from your partners, and the next crew, and the next, etc...

So make it simple...a second touch with the same or alternate hands is a foul. And voila - there is no need to judge each touch on it's own merits - a second touch is a foul. Don't do it. They get the message really quickly.

I've never had a problem calling contact on dribblers, so the rule isn't targeting me. I don't need to wait for 2 touches 30' and 10 seconds apart. I get the first one.

Originally Posted by rockyroad

2 minutes apart? Seriously? When was the last game you worked where one kid dribbled for 2 minutes?

In HS...I have worked more than a handful of games where a kid has held the ball for 1-2 minutes as a delaying tactic.

And you still didn't answer the question. What is the arbitrary time limit where you don't dismiss the question with a response of "seriously"?

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

And you still didn't answer the question. What is the arbitrary time limit where you don't dismiss the question with a response of "seriously"?

OK...I will not work a game this season without a shot clock. HS games all have either 30 or 35 second shot clocks here. So I won't see a 2 minute time frame that you are so worried about.

To answer your question - which by the way you have yet to do for my question - as long as that player is still a ballhandler, that defender may not touch them a second time with either hand. There is no time limit and there is no distance limit for me.

Now...what is your arbitrary distance where you will no longer call the second touch a foul without dismissing the question by asking another question?

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

I promised myself I wouldn't make any more posts in this thread but as with Michael Corleone "just when I thought I was out... they pull me back in"

NCAAM's 10.1.4 (at least part of it) is worded differently than NCAAW's so of course we're going to have different viewpoints. However, my view is based on the fact the wording in the NFHS and NCAAW rules regarding the second touch is the same, i.e., it's a foul.





None of this surprises me and thankfully the post element was clarified by Theresia Wynns in the latest Referee. You're right in that states are going to do what they want to do but there are only a certain number of changes states are supposed to be able to adopt and only one of them comes under Rule 10 (10.5.1 - the coaching box). Here's to hoping more clarification is on the way.

The post element was already cleared up. It's the very last case play in the case book.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

To both you and BNR...

I never said you were the first, or the only, one to insert a distance factor into the discussion. But your claim that you hadn't put distance in was wrong. You did put a distance factor into the discussion.

So again for both you and BNR...what is the maximum distance at which you will no longer call a second touch a foul?

I was responding to someone else making a claim that the NCAAW's interpretation is the NF interpretation. And that is why I asked my state administrator for his take to clarify if that was the case. His opinion is that RSBQ should play a role of the touches are that far apart on either touch.

I do not have a maximum distance, because I consider these acts to be at one basket time. If you touch once and it does not change the RSBQ of the ball handler and you get beat or back off significantly and several seconds are going by, the next touch should be judge on its own merits. To me one touch-two touch has to come about in the same sequence or time frame. And I also have no problem calling these fouls when they take place. I just find the NCAAW's interpretation to be inappropriate unless the NF says otherwise, which it appears they have not addressed the NCAAW's interpretation.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I've never had a problem calling contact on dribblers, so the rule isn't targeting me. I don't need to wait for 2 touches 30' and 10 seconds apart. I get the first one.

Same here. The first touch is often a foul. Players cannot help themselves most of the time. Then when you call it a few times, you do not have to call it again in the same way.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

OK...I will not work a game this season without a shot clock. HS games all have either 30 or 35 second shot clocks here. So I won't see a 2 minute time frame that you are so worried about.

JAR brought it up since some of you were insistent that a second touch, no matter how long and how far from the first touch, had to be a foul. Some of us do not work HS games that have shot clocks (imagine that), so some of us work games where a PG will dribble out the last 1-2 minutes of a quarter. So based on your interpretation of the rule, if that PG had a hand touch him when he first received the ball in the backcourt with 1:56 remaining, then got touched again with 0:10 remaining, that is an automatic foul. But your response to calling a foul in that situation when I post it was "seriously". Now you are changing up and saying you would call a foul. Not my fault you had to be a smart-a$$ because it was too much to consider that the shot clock is not universal.

Originally Posted by rockyroad

...To answer your question - which by the way you have yet to do for my question - as long as that player is still a ballhandler, that defender may not touch them a second time with either hand. There is no time limit and there is no distance limit for me.

Now...what is your arbitrary distance where you will no longer call the second touch a foul without dismissing the question by asking another question?

I don't have a time limit or distance limit. I'll continue to do what I do until the FED interprets the "second touch" has anytime, anywhere.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by The_Rookie

Let me add another wrinkle that has come my at meetings...

East-West versus North South....

Are you calling it any differently if ball handler is moving east west versus north south?

That used to be a consideration, that no longer applies. These are fouls, but the only issue is a time element is if they are two different events, rather than the same event as I believe the rule is covering.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

JAR brought it up since some of you were insistent that a second touch, no matter how long and how far from the first touch, had to be a foul. Some of us do not work HS games that have shot clocks (imagine that), so some of us work games where a PG will dribble out the last 1-2 minutes of a quarter. So based on your interpretation of the rule, if that PG had a hand touch him when he first received the ball in the backcourt with 1:56 remaining, then got touched again with 0:10 remaining, that is an automatic foul. But your response to calling a foul in that situation when I post it was "seriously". Now you are changing up and saying you would call a foul. Not my fault you had to be a smart-a$$ because it was too much to consider that the shot clock is not universal.

Exactly. I only work one high school set of games with a shot clock an that is in a Christmas high level tournament. I will work 4 games in that tournament every year. But every other game is no shot clock and at the end of many quarters, a player might hold the ball for near a minute and 2 minutes is not out of the question either.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I don't have a time limit or distance limit. I'll continue to do what I do until the FED interprets the "second touch" has anytime, anywhere.

These rules that were put into place, has just justified how I have been calling the game for the most part for years. The "second touch" anytime and anywhere is a new element I have never heard discussed previously. And that is why I asked my people for their answer. I will even talk to the head clinician this weekend as he has a college meeting we must attend as he is the supervisor. I will ask his take for further clarification. But something tells me the NF is not going to address this directly.

Peace