Shooting at the wrong basket case plays
 

I've ran into a couple plays of recent where I want to find definitive answers from the rulebook so I'm hoping fellow officials here can help.

Case 1: Player A grabs a defensive rebound then shoots at his own basket but it's an air ball. He catches the rebound before the ball hitting the floor. Is this a violation or legal since it is still considered a shot attempt.

Case 2: Player A shoots at his own basket with Player B fouling him during his shot attempt. The basket is good. Does Player A shoot a free-throw at his opponent's basket?

I'm assuming you want NFHS citations.

Case 1: You need to look at rule 4-44-2 for the definition of a try. From your question, I think reading this will help answer your question

Case 2: Case book play 4.41.2

You might want to check that assumption.

It will help you answer both questions.

(in the spirit of "teaching to fish")

and this is not football, the defense does not defend its own basket.

+1

Peace

I wish the NFHS would standardize this across its sports, in soccer you shoot at the opponents goal as well.

It is probably because at other levels in other sports use the same language. I do not think the NF needs to change anything to make people in football or soccer happy. Basketball at all levels to my understanding use the same language as to which goal you are shooting at or defending. Same language in football as to whose endzone.

Peace

By definition/rule: In NFHS, NCAA, and NBA/WNBA a player shoots at his/her team's basket; and in FIBA, a player shoots at his/her opponent's basket.

MTD, Sr.

Makes sense. I withdraw my suggestion.

Case 1: Legal. A player can always recover a failed try for goal. Whether or not it touches anything is irrelevant.

Case 2: As others have said, in basketball, the "wrong" basket is the opponent's basket. If you throw the ball at the opponent's basket, it is not a try for goal, and therefore you cannot be fouled in the act of shooting. The ball is dead when the foul occurs, you have a common foul (most likely), and there is no score. If the team of the player that was fouled is in the bonus, go from there.

Now, if the teams are shooting at the wrong goal because of the officials' error, we have an entirely different situation.

You might want to rethink #1.

I just wanted you to be aware that this is the culture of the sport. I can see why as a multiple sport official you would come up with that suggestion. We do not make these decisions anyway. So your suggestion is not something we can do anything with at this time. Certainly, no hard feelings, just the way it is for whatever reason.

Peace

Whether #1 is legal depends upon information that we don't have: but your assumption is incorrect. That seems to be the main assumption that is confusing you on both cases.

That statement is correct, but it might not (probably does not) apply to the OP.

All of what you say is correct... except for the word "legal".

I must be misunderstanding Case #1 if my ruling is not applicable.

Confucius Says ...
 

Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he'll learn to sit in a boat, and drink beer, all day.

Confused In Connecticut ...
 

These questions can't be answered (the way the original poster intended the situation to be) until the original poster cleans up his language in regard to whose basket is really being shot at. Otherwise, we will confuse ourselves to death trying to answer the questions. We can try to figure out what he really meant, but we're not mind readers.

It is not a try when a player attempts to score at the wrong basket. Look under the definition of a try.

The OP's situation described the player shooting at his "own basket," which would be a try.

I'll drink to that.

MTD, Sr.

Well, his subject did indicate the shots were at the "wrong" basket even if his subsequent description was not consistent with that. Given that "wrong" is pretty much clear, it doesn't matter if he doesn't understand the technicalities of which basket belongs to each team. His point and questions were clear enough.

The actions in the OP's cases were not trys.

Then, the question about whether the action (in case #1) is legal or not depends on other factors not mentioned. Did the player move/jump in the process of throwing the ball at the wrong basket and retrieving the ball?

In the 2nd case, the ball becomes dead at the time of the foul and it is not a shooting foul. The fouled player would only shoot FTs if his/her team were in the bonus. The basket will only be counted if it had passed through the basket at the time of the foul, otherwise, no score since the ball would have been dead.

This Is Clear ???
 

Clear? Really?

The subject line "wrong basket" does give us a clue about what he wants to know, and I think that I know what he means, but his actual post wording has still created a lot of confusion on the Forum, among some pretty astute Forum members.

I like Camron Rust's answers, but they can still be challenged based on confusion regarding the wording "own basket".

It's just a poorly written question that really can't be answered.

Do you still beat your wife? Do you really want to answer that?

Assumptions continued
 

Assuming that the OP intended the question to be about a player who is "shooting at the wrong basket" and therefore ignoring how said basket is labeled, then I posit the following for consideration:

The legality of #1 would depend on what he did before he let go of the ball and what he did after he caught it. This could be a traveling violation if he moved without starting a dribble (but not just because he threw the ball in the air and then caught it). Since this is not a TRY then any dribble/pivot situations have not ended. Most likely would have to be a judgement call. See 4.44.3D(b).

In #2, a player who has been fouled will only shoot free throws at their own (correct) basket; never at an opponents basket unless you have screwed up. And, we would only be shooting free throws in this situation if his team was in the bonus.

Also in #2, the basket would not count because, since it is not a TRY, the ball is dead when the foul occurs. It does not matter if the ball has been released or not -it is no different than a ball in the air that has been passed between teammates. Another way to look at it is to consider that if the shooter would not get two free throws if he was fouled and missed in this situation then the basket won't count if it went in. See 4.41.2

That depends on the order of events since "shooters" can be fouled even after the try is successful if they have not yet returned to the floor (perhaps it was a dunk or from very close).

If the ball went in before the player was "fouled" the basket would count...but for the other team, of course. And in that case, there would actually be no foul unless it were intentional or flagrant since the ball would be dead once it passed through the basket and the "fouled" player would not get the benefit of being an airborne shooter since he/she is not even a shooter.

My wife has a saying when I start getting picky about her words,
"Don't make me connect the dots when you already know what the picture looks like."

We knew what he meant based on the title and the 2nd scenario.

Most definitely...and the fact that several people pointed out that he incorrectly labeled the baskets, so it was obvious what his intentions were with the question.

Immediately after a "defensive rebound" - it's clear (to most of us at least) that he did not actually mean his "OWN" basket (otherwise the questions are nonsensical anyway). He meant the basket his team was defending ... the opponent's basket.

Agree. And the fact that it would be nearly impossible to grab a defensive rebound, throw it the length of the court towards your own basket, and then catch it before it came down.

It makes perfect sense to point out the incorrect language, but when otherwise intelligent officials act confused with the intent of question just to make a point, it makes the entire thread more confusing.

Answer: "No, Never have."

You mean like relabeling time-outs as an "extended stoppage of play"?

Who would do that?

Complex Question Fallacy ...
 

Does "we" include everybody?

Whether one, or two, people misread a post doesn't detract from its clarity. Obviously, the OP used incorrect terminology, but looking at the OP now, it's also clear what was meant. Also, given that we know many think of "own goal" as scoring for the other team (even FIBA labels the baskets that way in basketball), and the fact that most of us here know this, it's important to read the substance of a post instead of just the headlines.

Let it go.

I agree, until this author clarifies his theoretical scenario, then some Respondents may go as far positing the extremes: "allowing a play-on" or declaring a "travel" violation.

Also, did anyone notice in the three pages worth of responses that none of them has come from the person who posted the plays? My guess is (s)he got frustrated with three pages worth of nitpicking over the terminology and gave up.

I get it. We need to use correct terminology. However it would've been easy enough to just answer the question as it was meant given the title of the thread is Shooting at the wrong basket case plays then say, "by the way..."

Collars And Cuffs ...
 

Agree, but still believe that "clear" is a very strong word, especially when it could have been much clearer if the title matched the actual post. Note that I chose not to answer the post. I didn't want to post answers based on what was "meant" rather than what was posted, and then have astute Forum members tell me that I was wrong (as Kansas Ref alluded to above) because a player can be in the act of shooting at his own basket (see bballref3966's post above). To me, it just wasn't worth getting involved with the confusion. And by confusion, I am not talking about the original post (although I believe that the wording of the title combined with the actual post could be construed to be confusing), rather, I'm talking about the followup answers.

Actually, in this case, the headline (title) had more substance, and clarity, than the actual post.

I'm probably missing the point of your post ... I wouldn't relabel anything.

I'm just saying that it was clear to me if you read the whole post that
1) The OP was confused with the use of "own goal" in NFHS (and other) rules
2) The OP was asking about a situations involving shooting at the wrong goal

Two points from beyond the arch
 

1) Since this was posted in a basketball forum and not a language arts forum it seems odd that so much of this discussion has centered on how the OP was written rather than answering the questions intended by the OP, which if not "crystal" clear was at least "reasonably" clear enough based on simple context clues for us to have a basketball discussion.

2) If it really bothered some posters that much, why hasn't someone edited it for Afrosheen so that it would be 100% clear what was being asked and we could focus on basketball. I see posts all the time that say "there, I edited it for you" so maybe someone could do that.

Go Ahead And Edit Away ...
 

Agree 100%, and good idea.