Saving the ball to yourself?
 

I've tried looking for this question here and haven't found it. If it has been addressed earlier, my apologies for the double post.

The scenario is this: A ball is going out of bounds, a player chases the ball down, jumps in the air over the out of bounds line and throws the ball legally back into play. This is something we see all the time on all levels of basketball (i.e. player jumping into the crowd to save the ball). However, the thing i'm unclear about in this instance is whether that player who saved the ball is allowed to be the first to touch it after he throws it back in bounds i.e. saving the ball to himself?

I'd imagine no since in the act of saving the ball he is actually throwing a pass, and as everyone knows if you are the first person to touch the ball after throwing a pass you have committed a travel. I've tried looking for examples of it happening and haven't had any luck. Any insight regarding a ref's interpretation of this scenario will be greatly appreciated.

The scenario is covered in the Case Book, 7.1.1 D, and is legal. The controlled toss is considered the start of a dribble.

The issue is if you dribbled before and then picked it up with both hands and then threw the ball to the floor, you would not be allowed to retrieve it b/c it would be a double dribble. If you didn't picked it up with both hands than it is legal play.

Cool, thanks for the quick reply!

Going OOBs and returning will have no effect on the legality in this play. All that matters is whether any of the actions constitute an illegal dribble.

Just pretend A1 was standing in the middle of the free throw lane and decided to jump and "save" ball from reaching the 3-point line and rule accordingly.

To me it wasn't so much that he was going out of bounds, it was more of the fact that by saving the ball, i would interpret that as a pass rather than a start of a dribble and that's why i thought it was a travel

I think you'll find that what "everyone knows" is quite often just not true, especially when discussing the rules of popular sports.

I understand, but this question gets asked every year, so the quickest way to a proper ruling is to first eliminate any OOB considerations so that only the applicable rules are put in play.

Until the ball is touched by someone (in this and similar situations), it can be either a pass or a dribble. So, your initial premise that "it's a travel to recover (an attempted) pass" is incorrect.

Would you "interpret it" as a pass if said player tipped a rebound similarly (and no OOB line was in question) and then recovered the tipped bouncing ball?

Same here. Not illegal.

My premise that "it's a travel to recover an attempted pass" was not incorrect - because that is in fact a travel!

Where I got it wrong was thinking that an act of saving the ball from going out of bounds is exclusively deemed a pass, when in fact the case book says that it can also be deemed to be a start of a dribble.

We're telling you that it is an incorrect premise. If you have a rule book, you'll search forever to find that rule because it's not there. If you don't have one, you'll search slightly longer since we'll have to add the time it takes you to get one. :)

Let me ask.

A1 catches a pass from a teammate (let's call him A2). He then throws the ball towards another teammate (A3) in an attempt to pass the ball. A3 doesn't see it coming, so A1 runs over and retrieves the ball after it bounces before it goes out of bounds.

You think this is a travel?

Play: A1 is holding the ball, and has not dribbled. A1 attempts to pass the ball to A2 (and A1 does not lift the pivot foot in the process). A2 is not expecting the pass and cuts away from the pass. A2 runs and recovers the ball after it has bounced.

Ruling: I think you are claiming this would be a violation. It is legal. A1 has now dribbled the ball, and a subsequent dribble would be illegal.

If A1 had already dribbled, the play would be illegal. If A1 lifted the pivot foot prior to releasing the ball, it would be travelling. If A1 moved the pivot foot and caught the ball prior to the ball touching the floor, it would be a violation.

When you present it that way, it adds about 10 shades of gray to something i thought was black and white. Just makes me respect the officiating profession that much more. The tipping the ball while rebounding scenario is a little more clearcut in my mind since a guy tipping the ball while jostling for the rebound doesn't appear to have possession and any batting of the ball can hardly be deemed a pass, so hence - no travel. i look at that kind of in the same way where fumbling of the ball is not deemed a dribble and hence why a player is not called for travel in that case.

Keep reading. I think the tip is a poor illustration here. Read bob's latest post.

Hahah with the way you formulate the quesiton, i can guess what the answer will be :$.. after 20 plus years of playing basketball which included high school varsity, I honest to God had no idea this was NOT a travel. In fact, I thought it was one of the basic rules of basketball that you could not be the first to touch your own pass!

Assuming you're strictly speaking NFHS/NCAA rules, by very definition of a pass as spelled out in rule 4, it's impossible to pass the ball to oneself.

The NBA handles this play differently, depending on the actions of the player saving the ball, which is probably where confusion comes from.

Let me just answer that by saying if you release the ball and are the first to touch it ... you didn't pass it at all. I guess it's true that you can't be the first to touch your own pass ... because if you are it wasn't a pass. :)

Also, merely directing a ball that you don't have control of isn't anything at all (like the tip, or the save from OOB).

I would like to order a copy of "Rules of Basketball Explained by Bob."

Everyone would be wrong!

Then this will probably blow your mind. YOU CAN'T TRAVEL UNLESS YOU ARE HOLDING THE BALL.*

The issue here is that you don't know the definition of a pass. A pass is throwing or batting the ball to a teammate. So when a player throws the ball, it's a pass if next touched by another player. It's a dribble if touched by the player who threw or batted the ball.

Most people who have played or watched basketball all their lives think they know the rules but actually have many misconceptions and believe many of the rule myths that most any official knows aren't true. Stick around and you'll pick up some things.:)


(*A player who is kneeling/sitting on the floor, travels if he places the ball on the floor, stands and picks it up. This is the only exception to the statement above and that's because it's circumventing the rule.)

Let's Go To The Videotape ...
 

7.1.1 SITUATION D: A1 jumps from inbounds to retrieve an errant pass near a
boundary line. A1 catches the ball while in the air and tosses it back to the court.
A1 lands out of bounds and (a) is the first to touch the ball after returning
inbounds; (b) returns inbounds and immediately dribbles the ball; or (c) picks up
the ball after returning to the court and then begins a dribble. RULING: Legal in
(a) and (b). Illegal in (c) as the controlled toss of the ball to the court by A1 constitutes
the start of a dribble, dribbling a second time after picking up the ball is
an illegal dribble violation. (4-15-5; 4-15-6d; 4-35; 9-5)

Also, from the List O' Misunderstood Rules:

If a player's momentum carries him or her off the court, he or she can be the first player to touch the ball after returning inbounds. That player must not have left the court voluntarily and must immediately return inbounds. That player must have something in and nothing out. It is not necessary to have both feet back inbounds. It is a violation for a player to intentionally leave the court for an unauthorized reason.

A1 could also hustle over there and just keep dribbling the dribble he started.

Why would you think that it is exlusively deemed a pass. A player that receives pass can be the one that is saving the ball going OOB or as said start of a dribble.
On this clip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmeGerX7-eY
from 2:48 - 2:53 you can see how player caches the ball, goes OOB w/o the ball and then comes and picks the ball first. And the referee didn't call anything.

There are only two plays where it is illegal to touch the ball again after moving and is considered travelling
4.44.3 SITUATION D:

(a) A1 tosses the ball from one hand to the other while keeping his/her pivot foot in contact with the floor; or (b) A1 throws the ball over the head of B1 and then takes several steps before catching it.

RULING: Legal in (a), but a traveling violation in (b). In (b), since the ball did not touch the floor, the tossing and subsequent catch is illegal. (9-4)

4.44.5 SITUATION B:

A1 dives for a loose ball and slides after gaining control. A1 is in a position either on his/her back or stomach. What can A1 do without *violating?

RULING: A1 may pass, shoot, start a dribble or call a time-out. Once A1 has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over. If flat on his/her back, A1 may sit up without violating. Any attempt to get to the feet is *traveling unless A1 is dribbling. It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises and is first to touch the ball. (4-44-5b)

1 more, at least.

A1, without having previously dribbled, lifts his pivot foot before throwing the ball towards A2. A2 does not see the ball coming and leaves the area. A1 runs and is the first to touch the ball after it has bounced one or more times. This is a travel for having lifted the pivot foot prior to starting his dribble. (I'd like to see this changed to an illegal dribble.)

And this is why we cannot listen to the public about rules. A lot of people watch sports and think because they played or watched they understand what the rules state. That is clearly not the case and why becoming an official you have to relearn the rules from a different prism. Do not feel bad, you and many of us had to go through the same epiphany.

Peace