Double Whistle
 

Summer time experience...

1) With new rule on the release on FT..seeing many more lane violations.

2) Increase in double whistles..not sure why...people calling out of Primary?

3) Coaches complaining about Double Whistles...example: one ref has a hold other has a held ball.

Comments and summer observations that you have seen??

Have called one or two violations each tournament on shooter or players beyond the three point arch for entering on release but they get it real quick after that. Probably about the same rate as I call it during the season - once every 10 or so games. Some coaches have asked for clarification but once new rule is explained ("its only the marked ,and spaces coach") they have had no issues with it. As with all new/changed rules, its on them to read them and teach the kds.

Have not experienced #2 or #3 at all this summer. If/when it does happen I hope we will have pregamed to hold off on giving signals until we at least make some eye contact or otherwise communicate.

A lot of officials really do not hustle at all in the summertime.

I have seen fewer violations. Actually I have seen some players still wait for the ball to hit something before entering. Once again, great rules change.

Not seeing either of those two things. Actually it was a typical summer. AAU is a mess. High school coaches and fans do not now the rules. Officials working games they would not work during the regular season. Nothing has changed but the calendar on year.

Peace

Chicken Or Egg ???
 

Happens to me at least once every high school varsity season. Simple fix. Get together. Which came first? "I saw your hold, but I saw my held ball first."

What if the Hold happened first? It only matters whose whistle blew first?

#3, ignore them.

1. Yes. Every shooter's release is slightly different and when players are trying to time their entrance into the lane they often enter early. Bad rule change IMO.

2. We talking 2 or 3 person? 2 man requires calling out of your primary because the angles aren't that great. Calling out of primary doing 3 person might be just due to fewer experienced officials working summer ball.

3. Could be due to calling out of primary, but probably due to not knowing who has the best look at a play and being patient to let that person see the whole play start, develop, and finish. I called one just yesterday going away from me at C where I should have let Lead call the OOB instead of me call a foul.

Easy Peasey Lemon Squezy ...
 

If hold happens first: "I saw your held ball, but I saw my hold first."

Also, the whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead (Basketball Rules Fundamental #16) . The foul, or violation, causes the ball to become dead, so it's not the first whistle that determines the call, it's the first action that causes the ball to become dead. Some officials have a longer "lag time" between the action and the whistle than others.

Let It Hit Goes The Way Of The Buggy Whip ...
 

Good point. It was probably easier to "time" the hit.

Not currently working but...

1) Seems odd. I would expect to see less on the release.
2) Ball watching.
3) Expected if you have double whistles with different calls.

Inquiring Minds Want To Know ...
 

So you believe that it's easier for a player on a marked lane space to "time" a shooter's release (with all different types of shooting styles) then it is to "time" when a released ball will hit the rim, or the backboard?

I disagree with you. I like the rule change, but I think that we will have more, maybe not a lot more, but more players entering early with the change. We really need to be on our toes with the rule change.

I think it's less about them timing the release as it is they have more time to get in position when they start on the release as opposed to the hit - the ball still has to make it's way to the basket before they can try and get it. So they don't have as much of a (maybe false) sense of urgency that they need to start moving, before they are allowed to, to get into position.

Curious to hear your all opinions of this ... If there is a double whistle for a (hold / held ball), the hold is almost always first. My thinking is that during the loose ball, one official saw the foul before the held ball (if it wasn't before the held ball, that official would have called the held ball). The other didn't see the foul and thus called a held ball. So by default, the hold must have occured first.

Does this make sense to you all? I know this isn't always true, but for the held ball to have occured first, this would mean that one of the officials didn't see the held ball. Given that held balls are pretty obvious to just about everyone in the gym, how likely is it that the held ball occured before the hold?

Personally I think you are over thinking this situation. Often we call what we see anyway. I do not agree that the hold often occurs first. Often when players are struggling with the ball, they twist and move positions. I see a lot of held balls first then the action looks worse when not called earlier. I think all we can do is call what we see and make a determination if something happen first. If you see the hold or grab, call that.

Peace

Cross Canceling (Sorry About The Math) ...
 

Timing to legally enter versus a sense of urgency to get into position to rebound? Hopefully they'll cancel each other out and we will have the same frequency of violations?

That's not what I was saying. I'm thinking there will be fewer violations. I'm not too worried about it either way.

Herky Jerky ...
 

I'm still just a little worried about those free throw shooters with a little "hitch" in their shot. If opponents are going to violate, it will be in the first period, until they all get used to his shooting routine. We, as officials, will have to really be on our toes in the early part of the game.

Post-Camp(s) Report on New Rule
 

Get 'em early and put 'em on notice, "We're watching." But of course we all subscribe to that.
Those indifferent to calling it under the old rule will be likewise indifferent calling it under the new rule, sad to say.
Six camps this summer and I didn't note any more or fewer lane violations called. Was a "break-in period" for those beyond the arc who immediately learned the new rule applies only to lane-space players. Takes a trail who, after reporting, isn't schmoozing with a coach or taking a break out by the division line, as sometimes is observed.
Did detect increased frequency of second space player cutting behind lower block player. Sometimes legally, sometimes illegally. When called we curbed it.
Clinicians, all of whom brought seasoned NCAA experience to the court, are having us closer to the FT'er as C. Not a bad thing. Much better look at that which C needs to surveil from halfway between the sideline and the nearer freethrow lane line or so than out on the sideline, which is where the indifferent reside during a freethrow, it seems.

You'd have to consider the shooter and whether the motion is designed to draw the defense into a violation.

Using the "delayed-hitch" motion just before releasing the shot in the FT attempt is a time-worn stratagem used by players trying to "draw" a lane violation call. It's similar to in football, wherein either the QB will use long snap counts with lots of dramatic motions, head-bobbing, shoulder-faking, etc... to draw the 5 yards off sides penalty, or, when the offensive linemen use head bobs to pull the DT into the neutral zone.

So, regardless of the FT shooter's "intention" when using the hitch/delay motion in the act of FT shot attempt, if a lane violation occurred then we ought to decisively whistle it.

If you think the FT shooter is faking -- that's a violation on the shooter.

If it's just a natural hitch -- that's a violation on the players on the lane.

Deciding which is which is our job.

Sweet Georgia Brown ...
 

Even if the elastic band brings the ball back to the shooter?