Traveling refresher
 

Might have overextended on this one in first summer ball game a couple weeks ago.

Loose ball, pinball action winds up with A1 recovering ball while with either stomach, side or back on the ground. (Don't recall exact position now.) She then "rises" so to be kneeling (without turning/rolling over) and passes the ball away. No attempt at standing or placing a foot flat on the floor. Just kneeling tall. Seemed like a natural "sit-up" action, only with legs behind, so as to come to a praying pose. Whatcha got?

Jumbled brain tweeted a travel, thinking it was trying to establish too much after being down.

I'd have "legal"

Travel.

The only action permitted when lying on the floor it to sit up. And I have never seen a person "sit up" from their belly (or any other position) to their knees as that would be getting up, not sitting up. Sitting up would be from their back to their butt.

Rising to the knees is a partial attempt to stand. Basically, the rule doesn't allow them to get to a more advantageous position aside from the specific one listed (sitting up).

Plus, if they had been on their back, and got to that position, you'd have had a rollover first....traveling long before they got to the knees.

Too much uncertainty in what happened for me to put a whistle on it.

Uncertainty? A player is flat on the floor (belly, back, side, doesn't really matter) with the ball and then upright on their knees still with the ball. What is uncertain about that?

The is only one movement that is allowed by rule for a player who is lying on the floor...a player on his/her back may sit up. That's it.

The only question that exists is whether you consider a person on their knees to be sitting?

Since we are on the subject; had a play in summer ball a few weeks ago where a player dove after a loose ball, and in one motion caught the ball and rolled over while in the process of landing. By that I mean his chest/stomach never touched the ground, his elbow/shoulder may have touched slightly as he was roling in the air, and he lands on his back. I had no call. The fact that his elbow/shoulder hit as he's rolling doesn't matter does it?

Bingo. I hear you all, but this is really the question I came down to.

To make it simpler, picture it this way: If someone is on her stomach, can she get upright on her knees and pass?

There is disagreement here as to whether this is a travel. Some say going from the prone position to kneeling is not allowed and is an attempt to stand. Others don't. Bob and Camron are two respected examples from each side.

I agree on the issue of the player on his back going to his knees. That's a travel.

A player on his stomach going to his knees, however, has not done anything prohibited by rule, IMO. I don't see it as an attempt to stand.

Let's Go To The Videotape ...
 

Traveling is moving a foot or feet in any direction in excess of prescribed limits
while holding the ball. The limits on foot movements are as follows:
A player holding the ball:
b. After gaining control while on the floor and touching with other than hand
or foot, may not attempt to get up or stand.

How 'bout this one?
 

This may not be akin to the OP, but might be a good one to analyze:
Traveling or Not Did She Roll Over or Not - YouTube

<iframe width="853" height="480" src="//www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/1ihKoL_4U_k" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Not even an attempt to "get up"? What then is the reason for the statement (in either the case book or rule book, I don't remember where) about a player who is on their back being allowed to sit with no mention of other upward motions. Seems like they are allowing for that one action to be legal but not anything else.

I do not have a travel on that one. When she got the ball, she was as much on her butt as her side and only stabilized herself into the most natural position.

Travel in OP.

Travel in the OP; no travel on your play Freddo.

Cheek To Cheek ...
 

She didn't move her pivot cheek.

Travelin' Man ...
 

I can agree with your call, but not with your reasoning. "Stabilized herself into the most natural position" is neither part of the rule, nor is it part of the interpretation. How about it's not a travel because she didn't roll over, nor did she attempt to get up. She did a perfectly legal maneuver, sitting straight up after gaining control of the ball while flat on her back.

4.44.5 SITUATION B: A1 dives for a loose ball and slides after gaining control.
A1 is in a position either on his/her back or stomach. What can A1 do without
violating? RULING: A1 may pass, shoot, start a dribble or call a time-out. Once
A1 has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over. If flat on his/her
back, A1 may sit up without violating. Any attempt to get to the feet is traveling
unless A1 is dribbling. It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises
and is first to touch the ball. (4-44-5b)

4.44.5 SITUATION D: A1 secures possession of the ball with one knee in contact
with the floor. May A1 assume a standing position without committing a traveling
violation? RULING: It depends on what A1 does. If A1 attempts to stand up
while holding the ball, a traveling violation occurs. However, if A1 starts a dribble
and then rises, no violation has occurred. Also, A1 could pass, try for goal or call
a time-out from that position.

Actually, I believe it is part of the rule too, or at least it is in line with NFHS interpretation regarding diving and tumbling/sliding in the process of securing a loose ball. A player gets to come to rest in a stable position, not propped up in an awkward one.

He Asked Politely ...
 

Citation please?

I see it differently, as what is not forbidden is allowed. I don't see going to the knee from the stomach as an "attempt to get up."

I could be wrong, but I see "get up" and "stand" here as the same thing. So, standing is illegal, and attempting to stand is illegal. Rolling over is illegal. Sliding after the inertia ceases is illegal.

Depends on how you want to look at it. Player is not allowed to make any "attempt to get up." If you are on your back, the first step is to sit up. This is specifically allowed. If you are on your stomach, you rise up to your knees. This is not mentioned as being legal, so it falls under the blanket of being illegal.

It really depends on how you define "attempt to get up." I see it as equal to "attempt to stand," and in that light can't see how it applies to going from the stomach to the knee. Otherwise a player who controls the ball while on their stomach is restricted to requested a timeout.

You can pass the ball, sorta, from your stomach.

It can squirt out, or you allow a teammate to grab it. It won't be much of a pass, though.

Personally, I would allow the player to push up from the floor with one hand while passing the ball with the other. I would not allow him to rise straight up on his knees and then look for a place to pass. jmo

Why are they different?

I don't have it handy, but is the rule book different from the case book:

4.44.5 SITUATION B: A1 dives for a loose ball and slides after gaining control.
A1 is in a position either on his/her back or stomach. What can A1 do without
violating? RULING: A1 may pass, shoot, start a dribble or call a time-out. Once
A1 has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over. If flat on his/her
back, A1 may sit up without violating. Any attempt to get to the feet is traveling
unless A1 is dribbling. It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises
and is first to touch the ball. (4-44-5b)


Or, does the different wording matter?

For me, I think I need to see a foot flat (approximately) on the floor to view this as an attempt to (insert phrase here)

I think the text I've highlighted in blue is listing what is allowed since the question being as is what can A1 do. The red text that you highlighted is saying that anything else (not in the list of what is allowed) IS defined as an attempt to get up, even if it isn't complete or successful, and should be a violation.

If it's all at the same time, I see that this qualifies the action as part of the pass, which proves that the player was not attempting to get up.

Options ...
 

Pass? Shoot? Start a dribble?

Yes: "A player holding the ball after gaining control while on the floor.........may not attempt to get up or stand."

Is there a difference between "getting up" and "getting to the feet"?

Also, the rule book doesn't mention that the player can't roll over.

Fahrenheit 451 ???
 

You're correct. The rulebook doesn't say that a player can't roll over, but the casebook does say that a player can't roll over.

4.44.5 SITUATION B: A1 dives for a loose ball and slides after gaining control.
A1 is in a position either on his/her back or stomach. What can A1 do without
violating? RULING: A1 may pass, shoot, start a dribble or call a time-out. Once
A1 has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over.

I get what you're saying, but let's not confuse the issue for rookies, and for those that just joined the discussion.

And just to clarify (focusing on the "no longer sliding" in red from Billy), if a player dives after a ball, grabs said orb and doesn't like the chest burn he/she is getting -- while momentum continues to glide this person across the floor -- he/she may "rotate"/twist on to the buttocks before coming to a stop and THEN faces the no-rollover restrictions, right?

Seems this is actually a fairly common occurrence for this scenario (diving, possessing, twisting so as to be sitting for better view/passing opportunities).

Getting to this a little late but I have to agree with Camron.

Player is flat on his stomach. To stand, he will either
1- rolling over on to his butt
2- put both hands on the floor and walk up with his feet
3- or rise to a his knees.

When he rises to his knees, his attempting to get up. It make no difference whether he makes it to his feet or not. Attempting to get up constitutes traveling.

Attempt get up OR stand? If he goes from stomach to his knees, he has removed his torso from the floor. It may not be an attempt to stand but he certainly did get up.

Yep.

I asked an official I respect about situations like this and he said "reward good play and penalize bad play".

Don't fully know what that means, but maybe it will help someone trying to understand this play.

Honestly, it sounds like a quote from someone who doesn't want to look up the rule.

Or, want to just not call anything unless they're forced to....which is really not good for the game.

Let him try that one with his supervisor, especially if he works college ball. I don't think his supervisor will be too happy.

Suggest you find different official to respect. ;)

I talked to him the other day and he clarified it for me. Of course he calls the game by the rules....but this is one thing that helps him with the gray area plays and overall game management.

Roll over is traveling?
 

Situation

A player is on their butt with the ball. They are on their right hip and here comes a defender to take the ball. They roll to their left hip lifting their right hip off the ground and pass to their point guard.

Was this attempt to get up... I dont think so.

Did this give them advantage? I think so?

Is their right butt/hip considered a pivot like foot and changing that pivot to the left butt/hip considered changing pivots?

I wish the rule book made this clearer because half the referees I see call nothing and half call a travel.

My friend says roll over means rolling as 180 degree barrel roll. I see this as more advantage partially rolling away from a defender who comes to tie up the ball.

I want the opinions here with any reasoning why that I can use on my partners/coaches to make me a better referee. I see this play happen I want to be more confident inside and out when I make my decision.

Thanks in advance.

The travel rule doesn't contain anything related to "advantage" (and even if it did, it would be to NOT call something that is technically a violation if it DOES NOT gain an advantage. )

Even if this were true, it would only then be illegal to put the right check back on the floor.

The play you describe is legal -- this does not constitute a "roll."

Assume it is not a travel unless you can find something definitive in the rule book that states this action is a travel.

No travel. Rocking form hip to hip, while sitting, is not attempting to get up nor is it rolling over.

Rolling over is a player is turning from the stomach to the back, or from laying on their right side to laying on the left side.....something like a full 180 degree change of orientation.

May Not Roll Over ...
 

4.44.5 SITUATION B: A1 dives for a loose ball and slides after gaining control.
A1 is in a position either on his/her back or stomach. What can A1 do without
violating? RULING: A1 may pass, shoot, start a dribble or call a time-out. Once
A1 has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over. If flat on his/her
back, A1 may sit up without violating. Any attempt to get to the feet is traveling
unless A1 is dribbling. It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises
and is first to touch the ball. (4-44-5b)

Does it have to be 180 degrees? How about a player holding the ball while flat on his back who rolls ninety degrees to his left (ball moves from top of player's stomach to almost to the floor) to prevent a steal by an opponent on his right (the ball moves along with the rolling motion of the player's body, both move ninety degrees)?

I wish they used the NBA rule where it's legal to get up with the ball. Everyone appreciates hustle. It's legal to dive on the floor for a loose ball, reward the player by letting him or her stand.

I think the case comes close to *my* answer on this. Rolling from back to side is NOT rolling over.

I have always found it odd that a player from their back to sit up to get a range of mobility to pass, see imminent contact/player pressure coming, and generally be in a more stable and comfortable position, yet the player on the floor on their stomach can never really get a similar position without travelling.

It would seem to me that most hustle plays would have people diving face and chest first toward the ball and floor, rather than back first ;) Back first tends to be a result of a broken play where someone ends up off balance or already on the floor and flailing after a ball.

Not really a reward or punishment, but if I clumsily fall down on my back side and have to fall back to keep control of the ball (because I'm also clumsy) I can sit up. If I put my body on the line for a loose ball and floor burn my knees, hips and chest to get possesion of a ball I now get to lay perfectly still in a nearly impossible position to do much from.

My biggest concerns with these plays is player safety. When a player is sitting up almost no one dives on them or at the ball. When a player is prone on their belly there is almost always someone diving in or on second to try to tie the ball up. (IME)


*As officials I think its important that if contact happens to a player laying on the floor or diving at the ball I think its important that we get a foul call. Not just call for the tie up to reward the hustle on both sides.

So I believe it was asked here but I don't think I saw a definitive answer.

If A1 dives for a ball on the ground and secures the ball and his momentum causes him to roll over before he comes to a stop. Is this a travel because he has rolled over with player control of the ball? Or is this legal as he is allowed to come to rest from the dive?

99% certain there's a case or an interp directly on point.

Know the approximate year? Searched 17-18 cases 4.44 but didn't find anything directly.

The current case play lays out the principle that any motion as part of the dive, whether it be sliding or rolling is permitted. The case says that once a player is "no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over." 4.44.5B

That, to me, says that they can roll over before the momentum stops.

Makes sense thanks. Here is the reference for anyone else interested:

4.44.5 SITUATION B: A1 dives for a loose ball and slides
after gaining control. A1 is in a position either on his/her back
or stomach. What can A1 do without violating? RULING: A1
may pass, shoot, start a dribble or request a time-out. Once A1
has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over.
If flat on his/her back, A1 may sit up without violating. Any
attempt to get to the feet is traveling unless A1 is dribbling. It
is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises and
is first to touch the ball. (4-44-5b)