Sign of things to come
 

First summer tournament. Rule change allowing players along free throw lane to enter on release.

A1 shooting 1-1, first shot, players move in, A2 fouls B1, shot goes in. Team B is in the bonus. Clear the lanes, shoot the second, go to other end shoot 1-1.

I have worked several games with the new rules, not any more of a problem than there was before or when I worked college games. I think we are worried about nothing if you ask me.

Peace

I've had the same thing with the old rule.

Agreed. Been my experience so far. No issues to date.

I see more fouls, with players being able to enter earlier, and leading to more of this.

For a while, perhaps. It's just the nature of having more rebounding action to officiate. Shouldn't be any more fouls on these than you'd have on any 15 foot jumper during regular action.

There has been in my experience, just as much contact during "old" rule as there was I have seen during the "new" rule. I did not call many fouls then, I do not see calling many fouls now. And with the old rule where there were situations where a foul might be called, a "talk to" usually put them on notice and stopped a lot of crap.

Peace

I've run in to some instances where the teams don't understand the new rule only applies to marked lane spaces. At least a few times, I've seen players beyond the 3-point line run in on the release to try and "box out the shooter". Too much NBA watching I suppose.

Not that I'd consider this a problem with the new rule. I'm sure by the time the HS season comes around, this won't be happening.

Same here. No biggie. Call the foul and move on.

I think this is a good change and I'm glad to see the NFHS made it.

I had a couple of fouls called this weekend when the ball was going to be live, and it was not an issue. Just like stated by Adam, players are doing nothing differnet than what they do during a jump shot during normal action.

Peace

Why is this a problem? Your whistle isn't limited in its number of uses, is it?

This has been the rule in FIBA for a while. We don't have 1 and 1's though so there is no awkward foul between shots then a walk down.

I don't really see a lot of fouls in these competitive situations. If you are seeing elbows and punches thrown then obivously you get those in anysituation. If there is bumping/displacment that would lead to an advantage or disadvantage I would just have a patient whistle and see if the made shot changes your ideas about what the contact is doing. If you still feel its leading to a rougher game, and a "Clean it up" doesn't get it done early you can go and get it to.

Just call the fouls that you see. How much walking you do to the free throw line comes down to how the kids play.

This has been the NCAA rule for years and I cannot think of a single time there was a foul between a 1 and 1 in any of those games I just watched, let alone officiated.

Peace

My mind set isn't changing....call fouls !!! Yes, a few kids from outside will run in ( allowed in NBA ) but otherwise, no big deal...

I believe the rule is the same on this in the NBA, but I'm not sure.

In the NBA, everyone can enter in on the release except the shooter...players on the outside included.

Good thing I didn't claim to be sure. :)

I was part of a HS instructional camp last weekend as a court observer. On another court this situation occurred with 10 seconds remaining in a 1pt game.
The advice of the court observer: have a patient whistle. If the FT goes in, then calling the foul probably isn't necessary, unless the contact is severe. If the FT is missed, then a late whistle will likely get general acceptance.

I agree with his advice and think of this in terms of possession consequence and cleaning up rough play. There isn't any possession consequence on a made FT and only a few seconds remaining in the game probably isn't the time to be cleaning up rough play. I'm going to teach that such fouls need to be in the category of "can't ignore it."

This advice pretty much applies to any rebounding fouls. Have a patient whistle unless there is rough play that needs to be cleaned up.

I Hate It When That Happens ...
 

About once a year I have a situation where I believe that a rebounding foul has occurred and I sound my whistle, to then observe, a split second later, that the foulee now has the rebound easily in his possession. I swear that I'll never be fooled like that again, but I always am.

Sometimes, those fouls still need to be called....if only to discourage the behavior that you observed.

The game has degraded too far in the direction of not calling a foul if the player is still able to get the ball (or get by the defender, or make the shot). That can certainly be a factor, but it is taken too far. The advantage gained/lost is not always the end result but the effect how the rest of the game is played.

And also the follow up play. IOW, if the player gets the ball but, due to the illegal contact, is now in a significantly less advantageous position with the ball, a foul should be called.

Or if it discourages him/her from trying to get the next rebound because it was too risky (rough play), that is also a foul.

I'm not sure that I'm understanding you on this.

Are you saying that a foul should be called if I judge that a player may not want to go get the next rebound because the player thinks the play that just happened is too rough?

I think that is what he is saying...Camron will correct me if I am wrong, but we always call it the "3 minutes later" principle. As in, if I don't call that now, what will this game be like in 3 minutes?

No, he's saying rough play should always be cleaned up and one of the benefits of cleaning it up is players won't be afraid to try to get rebounds because of rough play.

Yep.

And....Yep.

If he is hesitant to go for a board because he is getting the crap beat of of him, yes. The fact that the right team gets the rebound is not always a reason to avoid calling the foul. It can be much of the time, but not as much as some take it. Sometimes, the contact just shouldn't be part of the game of basketball.

Then he shouldn't be playing basketball in the first place!

No, he shouldn't be playing football.

Ok Camron, whatever you think. I have never seen a kid at the HS or college level afraid to go after a rebound because of previous physical play. Kids that would be afraid of potential rough play during rebounding situations are weeded out of the game long before they get to that level.

I don't disagree with you that there are times a whistle is needed to clean up certain things or prevent things from escalating, but the idea that there are going to be players too scared to go after a rebound because of previous or potential rough play is just ridiculous.

I hear you johnny d but I don't think Camron's view is any less valid than yours. He just has a different way of looking at clean-up fouls that's all.

I could certainly see a player thinking "I went to get a rebound last time and got popped in the chin and they didn't call it" and not going after the next one.

Regardless, rough play should be cleaned up no matter what justification you use.

I agree with cleaning up the rough play. The issue proposed by Cameron though is that the standard for rough be determined by the physical and mental toughness of the kids involved in the game. The fact that somone doesn't like that amount of contact doesn't make the play rough.

We see teams all the time with all the god given athleticism in the world but who for whatever reason don't play very fundamentally and very often play teams athletic enough to use fundamental skills to compete with them. Suddenly they get into a game where on every play every player is getting boxed out, every cut/ post is being denied, every player is being closed out and the opponent is willing to put themselves in position to force block charge calls instead of opening up and letting them go.

They don't like it. Its more contact then they are used to and they are frustrated by it. That doesn't mean the game is too rough. This is not specifically what Cameron is talking about but if we apply the idea of the player not wanting to play through that much contact as a standard suddenly perfectly legal plays in anyother game become fouls because the other team doesn't like it or want to be touched.

The official has to be the determinant of adv/disadv and of what is or is not rough play. Not the willingness of coaches, players or fans.

The flip side is true also just because two kids or teams are willing to go at each other doesn't mean we have to let them be out of control just because they both want to play that way and for the most part can handle it.

Huh?
 

I have. Not "afraid" or "scared". But hesitant. Such hesitancy, when due to no-calls on rough play when calls were, by rule and by a proper feel for the game, justified = advantage to illegally rough team, disadvantage to team abiding by the rules.
Just a thought.
And, I reserve the right to be wrong. :)

Report from a Camp . . . New Rule
 

Camp last weekend first experience with "enter on release" since back in the late '70's or so.
Need for tactful preventative officiating reminders not to enter early was same as with old rule. "Enter when legal" was again the phrase that curbed early entry the best.
Just as many early entry violations called as according to the old rule.
No uptick in rough play that I could detect, and I was lookin'.
Entry by players beyond the arc prior to the attempt hitting the rim occurred, not so much to gain an advantage, but because of players' unfamiliarity with the difference in the rule between lane line players and shooter/others.
All in all, didn't make much a difference in any significant way. I did notice lazy and slow lane line players put themselves at more of a disadvantage due to their laziness and slowness, not because of any illegalities on the part of opponents.

You didn't ref in the 80s or early 90s?

Gap for coaching between '84 and mid-90's.
When was it "on the release"? I don't recall exactly.

I played high school ball in the late 80s early 90s, started working some ms ball when I was in college. Took some time off, and when I came back in the late 90s it had changed.

It mush have been right around 2000 that there was a change. I'm fairly certain that I remember playing on the release for most, if not all of my HS years (1998-2001). But by college (playing intermurals/rec leagues), it was all "on contact".

Which Rules Are We Using ???
 

I believe that in my thirty-three years of officiating I've gone from hit, to release, back to hit, and now back to release. Don't ask me the dates, it's all a blurr.

At camp on Monday, our state's rules interpreter told us that all players can enter the lane on the release – including the shooter and players behind the arc. :eek: He repeated this when someone else asked if that was the new rule.

Gently suggest to him he might want to pay attention to the words "marked lane spaces" on the NFHS release before he answers that question publicly again.

Oy...

Huh?
 

PM me with the name of that "state rules interpreter."
I'll likely encounter him at an upcoming camp or two and want to be ready for it.

Happens To The Best, And The Worst, Of Us ...
 

It's probably just a brain fart. The smell will eventually dissipate.

That kind of brain fart is not acceptable from a state interpreter speaking at a camp full of officials.

If it were truly just a brain fart, he would have corrected himself by the end of the day/camp.

What state?

Judging by Freddy's response, Michigan.

If that state is correct, I don't think they have any "state rules interpreters"
Would be interested in the authority of the one who was wrong

Freddy: I'll PM you.

Perhaps Rules Interpreter wasn't the best term to use, but I believe he is the head of basketball in the MHSAA. He does the voice over for the annual online rules meeting.

Cast The First Stone (John 8:7) ...
 

In reviewing free throw mechanics with one of our cadet classes, the chair of the training committee stated that players in the marked lane spaces could not put any part of their body over the plane of the lane line, or the plane of the lane space lines. Unacceptable? Yes. Do mistakes like this happen? Yes. The other members of the committee either didn't note the mistake, or didn't want to embarrass him in front of the cadets. We let him know about it at the end of class, and he corrected himself at the next class. Teaching is tough. I know. I did it for over thirty years, as a day job. Maybe that's why I'm more tolerant than most.

Ah yes :(

Did you note the rest of my post?