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-   -   Frontcourt Corner Coverage (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/97818-frontcourt-corner-coverage.html)

AremRed Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich (Post 932788)
Whenever I see someone post or say something about "who's watching your primary if you're looking there" or something similar, it lets me know exactly what kind of official that person is -- someone who doesn't care if the crew suffers as long as that person can say he had his primary covered.
Or PCAs are there for a reason and we should trust that our partners are getting what needs to be gotten (absent a game-deciding call).

That said, the philosophy is different in NCAA-M vs. high school.

deecee Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 932826)
Or PCAs are there for a reason and we should trust that our partners are getting what needs to be gotten (absent a game-deciding call).

That said, the philosophy is different in NCAA-M vs. high school.
Secondary coverage areas are there too for a reason and we should also expect that sh!t gets missed by our partners from time to time and they may need a second set of eyes on specific action.

That said, the philosophy is the same everywhere. Ref the game!

AremRed Mon Apr 28, 2014 01:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee (Post 932830)
Secondary coverage areas are there too for a reason and we should also expect that sh!t gets missed by our partners from time to time and they may need a second set of eyes on specific action.
I've never seen a secondary coverage area map that includes the corner as Lead. Can you provide one?

hoopsaddict Mon Apr 28, 2014 01:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 932832)
I've never seen a secondary coverage area map that includes the corner as Lead. Can you provide one?
NFHS Officials Manual 3.3.4 A (2):
If a shot is taken near an area where coverage intersects, the secondary official should be prepared to assist.

and

3.4.2 A (2):
Typically an official should call fouls in his/her PCA, but any foul observed should be called.

As a note, the lead mirroring the basketball to assist with the trail for on-ball action in the corner can also better officiate the drive to the basket that occurs from this area. Allowing the lead to see the entire play through its start, develop and finish phases.

Raymond Mon Apr 28, 2014 01:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 932832)
I've never seen a secondary coverage area map that includes the corner as Lead. Can you provide one?
I've never seen a secondary coverage area diagram at all.

That said, if you are the Lead, and you have mirrored the ball out to the 3-point line, and you have nothing going on in the post, you'll look pretty incompetent if you don't call an obvious foul on that 3-point shot that happens 3 feet away from you, if the Trail misses it for whatever reason.

Say the 6' 8" post player comes out the sideline and sets a pick followed by quick 3-point shot on the baseline side of pick. Who should be helping the Trail if he gets blocked out by bodies.

As one of my supervisors likes to say, "sometimes you just gotta referee."

AremRed Mon Apr 28, 2014 02:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 932836)
I've never seen a secondary coverage area diagram at all.
There's one in the NCAA-M's mechanics manual under section 7. Page 36-37.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 932836)
That said, if you are the Lead, and you have mirrored the ball out to the 3-point line, and you have nothing going on in the post, you'll look pretty incompetent if you don't call an obvious foul on that 3-point shot that happens 3 feet away from you, if the Trail misses it for whatever reason.
1) The mechanics manual tells Lead to watch the rebounding action so Lead wouldn't be looking there anyway. Lead has to watch the rebounding action instead of the shooter in the corner because he needs to see the rebounding play start, develop, and finish in order to call/no-call it correctly. Perhaps if the manual said that the Trail covers rebounding action while the Lead takes the corner three (à la NBA and I presume, NCAA-W) then that's one thing. Under the current NCAA-M and NFHS mechanics if the Lead is watching the corner shot then the Trail is as well. That leaves no one watching strong-side rebounding. What's more valuable -- having 4 eyes on a corner three (Trail having one side of the play, Lead having the other), or 2 eyes on the corner shot and 2 on the resulting rebounding action??

2) Maybe some fans or coaches will think Lead incompetent but officials and more importantly supervisors who know better will know that Lead shouldn't be looking there. Did Art Hyland fault Mike Stuart for missing the foul in the UCONN game? No, that was Trail's play. Kevin Ollie was yelling at the wrong guy from the start.

hoopsaddict Mon Apr 28, 2014 02:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 932843)
There's one in the NCAA-M's mechanics manual under section 7. Page 36-37.



1) The mechanics manual tells Lead to watch the rebounding action so Lead wouldn't be looking there anyway. Lead has to watch the rebounding action instead of the shooter in the corner because he needs to see the rebounding play start, develop, and finish in order to call/no-call it correctly. Perhaps if the manual said that the Trail covers rebounding action while the Lead takes the corner three (à la NBA and I presume, NCAA-W) then that's one thing. Under the current NCAA-M and NFHS mechanics if the Lead is watching the corner shot then the Trail is as well. That leaves no one watching strong-side rebounding. What's more valuable -- having 4 eyes on a corner three (Trail having one side of the play, Lead having the other), or 2 eyes on the corner shot and 2 on the resulting rebounding action??

2) Maybe some fans or coaches will think Lead incompetent but officials and more importantly supervisors who know better will know that Lead shouldn't be looking there. Did Art Hyland fault Mike Stuart for missing the foul in the UCONN game? No, that was Trail's play. Kevin Ollie was yelling at the wrong guy from the start.
The point is being advocated that the lead not solely watch the shot taken from the corner but more so position themselves in a spot where they can see within their peripheral vision the shot taken from the corner as well as their primary coverage area (including rebounding responsibilities as you suggest).

Going wide with the basketball in an effort to mirror the ball allows the official to expand their field of vision to assist on this play. If the official does not mirror the ball and stays near the close-down position they won't be able to watch both areas.

Raymond Mon Apr 28, 2014 02:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 932843)
There's one in the NCAA-M's mechanics manual under section 7. Page 36-37.



1) The mechanics manual tells Lead to watch the rebounding action so Lead wouldn't be looking there anyway. Lead has to watch the rebounding action instead of the shooter in the corner because he needs to see the rebounding play start, develop, and finish in order to call/no-call it correctly. Perhaps if the manual said that the Trail covers rebounding action while the Lead takes the corner three (à la NBA and I presume, NCAA-W) then that's one thing. Under the current NCAA-M and NFHS mechanics if the Lead is watching the corner shot then the Trail is as well. That leaves no one watching strong-side rebounding. What's more valuable -- having 4 eyes on a corner three (Trail having one side of the play, Lead having the other), or 2 eyes on the corner shot and 2 on the resulting rebounding action??

2) Maybe some fans or coaches will think Lead incompetent but officials and more importantly supervisors who know better will know that Lead shouldn't be looking there. Did Art Hyland fault Mike Stuart for missing the foul in the UCONN game? No, that was Trail's play. Kevin Ollie was yelling at the wrong guy from the start.
All fine, but you didn't answer my question: "Say the 6' 8" post player comes out the sideline and sets a pick followed by quick 3-point shot on the baseline side of pick. Who should be helping the Trail if he gets blocked out by bodies?"

And there is difference between Mike Stuart (who, by the way, works for Curtis Shaw; and none of us know what Shaw said to Stuart in the phone call that night) and those of us trying to get more officiating opportunities via camps. If you are in a camp and tell an observer that you didn't call the foul b/c your primary is rebounding action, the impression you leave will not be very positive.

Nevadaref Mon Apr 28, 2014 02:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich (Post 932788)
Whenever I see someone post or say something about "who's watching your primary if you're looking there" or something similar, it lets me know exactly what kind of official that person is -- someone who doesn't care if the crew suffers as long as that person can say he had his primary covered.
Could be a person who is sick & tired of partners ball-watching and overriding a judgment by the primary official that a play is not a foul by putting a whistle on it. Also, the person could be fed up with having to cover and catch something off-ball for the crew in a partner's primary because that person is wrongly focused where the ball is.

Toren Mon Apr 28, 2014 03:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by eyezen (Post 932762)
This is specifically one of the "things to work on" this summer at camp in a memo passed down from John Adams to and through college supervisors...


*Shots taken in corners

Lead widens and opens to assist trail on shots taken in the corners. Make sure the shot attempt is clean then release to the post.

This

AremRed Mon Apr 28, 2014 03:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoopsaddict (Post 932852)
The point is being advocated that the lead not solely watch the shot taken from the corner but more so position themselves in a spot where they can see within their peripheral vision the shot taken from the corner as well as their primary coverage area (including rebounding responsibilities as you suggest).

Going wide with the basketball in an effort to mirror the ball allows the official to expand their field of vision to assist on this play. If the official does not mirror the ball and stays near the close-down position they won't be able to watch both areas.
There is no way an official can see both rebounding action in the paint and the 3 point shooter in the corner at the same time without being outside the 3 point line along the end line. And that is too wide as Lead. Even NCAA-W or NBA refs don't go out that far -- they turn their body to face one or the other, but are never reffing both. That's why Trail is instructed to watch the rebounding action on those types of plays.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 932853)
All fine, but you didn't answer my question: "Say the 6' 8" post player comes out the sideline and sets a pick followed by quick 3-point shot on the baseline side of pick. Who should be helping the Trail if he gets blocked out by bodies?"
I've never seen the pick play you describe in the corner (too easy to trap), they usually do this on the wing where Trail has a good look and Lead has dual coverage. Even if the play you describe happens I think the mechanics book is pretty clear -- Trail has every shot in the corner. If they want to see the play I guess they have to close down quite a bit and even step off the court.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 932853)
And there is difference between Mike Stuart (who, by the way, works for Curtis Shaw
I thought the UCONN-Louisville game used Big East refs (Teddy V, Stuart, and Brian O'Connell), isn't Curtis Shaw the Big 12 coordinator?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 932853)
If you are in a camp and tell an observer that you didn't call the foul b/c your primary is rebounding action, the impression you leave will not be very positive.
I wouldn't say that, because I wouldn't get criticized for something out of my area. Even if a clinician reamed me for not looking at the corner I wouldn't say that.

Nevadaref Mon Apr 28, 2014 03:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 932836)
Say the 6' 8" post player comes out the sideline and sets a pick followed by quick 3-point shot on the baseline side of pick. Who should be helping the Trail if he gets blocked out by bodies.
This is the thought I had when reading the OP. The double-team on the wing probably blocked the Trail's view of the shooter in the corner.
An excellent official considers what his partners can and cannot see before making a call out of his PCA.
That is the whole reason that a secondary whistle should be late. "That's the C's call. Wait, maybe Jack can't see it. I have to call this." Tweet

Raymond Mon Apr 28, 2014 03:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 932861)
I wouldn't say that, because I wouldn't get criticized for something out of my area. Even if a clinician reamed me for not looking at the corner I wouldn't say that.
You haven't been to enough camps then. That's a common question: "Did you see the foul?" / "Yes" / "Then WTF didn't you call it"

AremRed Mon Apr 28, 2014 03:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 932863)
You haven't been to enough camps then. That's a common question: "Did you see the foul?" / "Yes" / "Then WTF didn't you call it"
But I wouldn't see the foul because I wouldn't be watching there. It's not my area. If I peek there then I miss something during the rebound.

"Did you see the foul" / "No." / "Why not?" / "I was watching the rebound play."

JRutledge Mon Apr 28, 2014 03:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 932861)
I wouldn't say that, because I wouldn't get criticized for something out of my area. Even if a clinician reamed me for not looking at the corner I wouldn't say that.
BNR is right.

I went to camp years ago when Dale Kelley was running multiple camps (Curtis Shaw's predecessor). I was in Denton, Texas and we had a very close game in the second half. Well the very last play there was s situation on the other side of the lane from me where I was the C. A lot of contact, but I could not tell for sure if the contact was illegal, so I called nothing. My partners passed on the contact as well.

Well when the game was over, the clinicians ripped on all of us. I was even the least likely guy to make the call and I got ripped as well. And when I was asked about the play, all I could say, "I did not see the entire play." The clinician shook his head as to to tell me I screwed up. I took it and learned a lesson.

No, you have not been to enough camps. ;)

Peace


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