Frontcourt Corner Coverage
 

This happened in a game from the same Nike tournament BNR referenced in his thread:

Team A is in their frontcourt set. Double team pressure by the defense on the wing forces A1 to pass it to A2 in the corner.

I'm the lead out wide near A2. A2 puts up a three...B2, while A2 is still in the air, hits A2 on the arm, and the contact is more than incidental/marginal. I wait half a beat for the trail's whistle...then come in with the foul.

I had one college official (NCAA-M), who was one of the partners for the game, says that's a call you have to get...even from the lead. Also had some feedback, from some other officials, that asked, if I'm looking out there, who's looking at the post/rebound action.

What say you? What are your thoughts on the lead coming in on a foul on these types of plays?

Obviously, the play above is for NFHS/NCAA-M mechanics.

I don't think it is an either/or choice. Being aware of what is/was going on in the paint, you can make the choice to help on that shot or not. If there is heavy post action, you may not be able to look. But, if the post is quiet, why not? You're less than 10 feet from the shot, may have the best and clearest view. In fact, the NCAA-W and NBA want the lead to cover that, probably for those very reasons.

At all levels, mechanics are guidelines, not rules. They are intended to help us, as a crew, judge the game and apply the rules correctly. If we do the mechanics right but still miss the call, have we actually done anything right? Sometimes, the play dictates that we step outside of the lines to cover the play.

Reminds me of the UConn game in January where Kevin Ollie was tossed. Exact same situation it seems.

If you are working wide because you are moving with the ball, then get the foul. If you have to turn your shoulders, then let it go for the Trail.
I had that play many years ago. I waited for the Trail to whistle the illegal contact. He waited until the shot was missed before he called a foul.:eek: I have heard of a patient whistle. but....

This is specifically one of the "things to work on" this summer at camp in a memo passed down from John Adams to and through college supervisors...


*Shots taken in corners

Lead widens and opens to assist trail on shots taken in the corners. Make sure the shot attempt is clean then release to the post.

Depends on how your partners feel about you calling in their primary.

A big time official told me and others at his camp, "Who are they going to yell at if you do not get the foul?"

I tend to agree with him and on a very rare occasion, I get this call. Again rare, but if it is enough contact to get the foul, then get the foul.

Peace

it should depend on what's best for the game, not your partners' personal feelings.

It should, but we both know that doesn't always happen.

Whenever I see someone post or say something about "who's watching your primary if you're looking there" or something similar, it lets me know exactly what kind of official that person is -- someone who doesn't care if the crew suffers as long as that person can say he had his primary covered.

Not Either/Or; Perhaps Both/And?
 

The difference being one official who is an avid ballwatcher who's all over that shot from the corner while elbows are flying unabated underneath and the better official who maintains his primary surveillance but also maintains situational awareness and isn't fixated so much on his PCA that he's unaware of the wider view should something need to be called for the sake of the crew and the game. I think.

Some folks do not understand the concept of Secondary Coverage Area.

The lead should work wide to mirror the ball. When they are wide with the ball they can have a peripheral view of both the shot taken in the corner and their primary coverage area (the lane/post). Thus allowing the effective coverage of the play from the trail's perspective and the lead's secondary coverage area to provide a correct secondary cadence whistle from the lead.

Working with NCAA-W Lead Officials
 

I found this to be superbly and succinctly stated.

Interesting condition sometimes occurs later in games with me at T and the L being an official who works NCAA-W. Though we pregame the NFHS mechanic, it seems they, after a half or so, revert to L taking observation of that shot. Really very simple compensation step -- T widens his view to briefly observe what's going on low in the paint as L's attention centers on the defender going up for the block. The good NCAA-W officials seem to shift readily back down low after things are over with the shot and they cover their area without watching the flight of the ball. That's how it seems anyway. Not sure if it's all according to Hoyle, but that's how it feels like it works out, and all bases are covered.
Now, if I could just get them to resist reporting foul numbers two-handed. The good ones don't. The indifferent ones, or the ones who make an effort to big-time the other officials don't care and do it anyway. :mad:

Or maybe they just forget every now and then...

Or PCAs are there for a reason and we should trust that our partners are getting what needs to be gotten (absent a game-deciding call).

That said, the philosophy is different in NCAA-M vs. high school.

Secondary coverage areas are there too for a reason and we should also expect that sh!t gets missed by our partners from time to time and they may need a second set of eyes on specific action.

That said, the philosophy is the same everywhere. Ref the game!

I've never seen a secondary coverage area map that includes the corner as Lead. Can you provide one?

NFHS Officials Manual 3.3.4 A (2):
If a shot is taken near an area where coverage intersects, the secondary official should be prepared to assist.

and

3.4.2 A (2):
Typically an official should call fouls in his/her PCA, but any foul observed should be called.

As a note, the lead mirroring the basketball to assist with the trail for on-ball action in the corner can also better officiate the drive to the basket that occurs from this area. Allowing the lead to see the entire play through its start, develop and finish phases.

I've never seen a secondary coverage area diagram at all.

That said, if you are the Lead, and you have mirrored the ball out to the 3-point line, and you have nothing going on in the post, you'll look pretty incompetent if you don't call an obvious foul on that 3-point shot that happens 3 feet away from you, if the Trail misses it for whatever reason.

Say the 6' 8" post player comes out the sideline and sets a pick followed by quick 3-point shot on the baseline side of pick. Who should be helping the Trail if he gets blocked out by bodies.

As one of my supervisors likes to say, "sometimes you just gotta referee."

There's one in the NCAA-M's mechanics manual under section 7. Page 36-37.

1) The mechanics manual tells Lead to watch the rebounding action so Lead wouldn't be looking there anyway. Lead has to watch the rebounding action instead of the shooter in the corner because he needs to see the rebounding play start, develop, and finish in order to call/no-call it correctly. Perhaps if the manual said that the Trail covers rebounding action while the Lead takes the corner three (à la NBA and I presume, NCAA-W) then that's one thing. Under the current NCAA-M and NFHS mechanics if the Lead is watching the corner shot then the Trail is as well. That leaves no one watching strong-side rebounding. What's more valuable -- having 4 eyes on a corner three (Trail having one side of the play, Lead having the other), or 2 eyes on the corner shot and 2 on the resulting rebounding action??

2) Maybe some fans or coaches will think Lead incompetent but officials and more importantly supervisors who know better will know that Lead shouldn't be looking there. Did Art Hyland fault Mike Stuart for missing the foul in the UCONN game? No, that was Trail's play. Kevin Ollie was yelling at the wrong guy from the start.

The point is being advocated that the lead not solely watch the shot taken from the corner but more so position themselves in a spot where they can see within their peripheral vision the shot taken from the corner as well as their primary coverage area (including rebounding responsibilities as you suggest).

Going wide with the basketball in an effort to mirror the ball allows the official to expand their field of vision to assist on this play. If the official does not mirror the ball and stays near the close-down position they won't be able to watch both areas.

All fine, but you didn't answer my question: "Say the 6' 8" post player comes out the sideline and sets a pick followed by quick 3-point shot on the baseline side of pick. Who should be helping the Trail if he gets blocked out by bodies?"

And there is difference between Mike Stuart (who, by the way, works for Curtis Shaw; and none of us know what Shaw said to Stuart in the phone call that night) and those of us trying to get more officiating opportunities via camps. If you are in a camp and tell an observer that you didn't call the foul b/c your primary is rebounding action, the impression you leave will not be very positive.

Could be a person who is sick & tired of partners ball-watching and overriding a judgment by the primary official that a play is not a foul by putting a whistle on it. Also, the person could be fed up with having to cover and catch something off-ball for the crew in a partner's primary because that person is wrongly focused where the ball is.

This

There is no way an official can see both rebounding action in the paint and the 3 point shooter in the corner at the same time without being outside the 3 point line along the end line. And that is too wide as Lead. Even NCAA-W or NBA refs don't go out that far -- they turn their body to face one or the other, but are never reffing both. That's why Trail is instructed to watch the rebounding action on those types of plays.

I've never seen the pick play you describe in the corner (too easy to trap), they usually do this on the wing where Trail has a good look and Lead has dual coverage. Even if the play you describe happens I think the mechanics book is pretty clear -- Trail has every shot in the corner. If they want to see the play I guess they have to close down quite a bit and even step off the court.

I thought the UCONN-Louisville game used Big East refs (Teddy V, Stuart, and Brian O'Connell), isn't Curtis Shaw the Big 12 coordinator?

I wouldn't say that, because I wouldn't get criticized for something out of my area. Even if a clinician reamed me for not looking at the corner I wouldn't say that.

This is the thought I had when reading the OP. The double-team on the wing probably blocked the Trail's view of the shooter in the corner.
An excellent official considers what his partners can and cannot see before making a call out of his PCA.
That is the whole reason that a secondary whistle should be late. "That's the C's call. Wait, maybe Jack can't see it. I have to call this." Tweet

You haven't been to enough camps then. That's a common question: "Did you see the foul?" / "Yes" / "Then WTF didn't you call it"

But I wouldn't see the foul because I wouldn't be watching there. It's not my area. If I peek there then I miss something during the rebound.

"Did you see the foul" / "No." / "Why not?" / "I was watching the rebound play."

BNR is right.

I went to camp years ago when Dale Kelley was running multiple camps (Curtis Shaw's predecessor). I was in Denton, Texas and we had a very close game in the second half. Well the very last play there was s situation on the other side of the lane from me where I was the C. A lot of contact, but I could not tell for sure if the contact was illegal, so I called nothing. My partners passed on the contact as well.

Well when the game was over, the clinicians ripped on all of us. I was even the least likely guy to make the call and I got ripped as well. And when I was asked about the play, all I could say, "I did not see the entire play." The clinician shook his head as to to tell me I screwed up. I took it and learned a lesson.

No, you have not been to enough camps. ;)

Peace

And I saw the play in the OP. I have no idea why the Trail didn't call it, other than he was usually near the division line in the trail and probably bailed on the play. It was definitely a foul, and APG did have patient whistle. The team on offense wasn't running any plays through the low-post all game. APG was out wide mirroring the post and the foul happened no more than 3' from him.

I was part of the locker room discussion afterwards. The folks who didn't like the call never said it wasn't a foul, just that the Lead shouldn't be looking out there. When I'm the Lead out that wide and a 3 goes up from the corner, I'm peeking at the shooter also. Doesn't take but a split second.

Confernce Supervisor (who stopped by your court to specifically watch you): "What rebound? The shooter got hit and the ball hit the side of the backboard. Now the coach is rightfully pissed because I have 1 official who missed a foul in his primary, and a 2nd official who didn't call the foul that happened 3 ft away from him. Here's some advise if you want to move to the next level: open up and be able to ref your primary as well as help your partner on ball when play moves away from him and towards you."

If you made a call would you have been guessing? Cuz I don't think you can guess on a game-deciding or (although I hate the term) "crew-saving" call.

Not necessarily. I did see the play but was in camp thinking I should leave it up to my partners. I just did not pull the trigger. And I could not do what you suggest, "I was not watching that, I was watching other action."

I admitted to see the play, I just did not have the best angle and I wanted to give my partners a shot to call the play.

Peace

I gotcha. I think there's a difference though between your play and peeking in the corner as Lead. Even if you are really wide as Lead you will need to turn your head/body to look in the corner. When I work Lead that corner is usually 90 degrees to my right or left. My back is to that play. In your play you have the entire frontcourt in your peripheral vision, and I am assuming that you probably had the worst look at the play. There is a reason you passed on the play -- you knew or assumed Lead and Trail had better looks than you and passed on the play for a reason and you decided to trust their judgement.

Your play reminds me of the Kansas-Iowa State charge play two years ago. That play was Lead and C's primary/dual coverage area, either one could have gotten it. Trail could have come to get it, but he was really far away. He passed, and in the resulting suspension/game reduction of the two covering officials, Trail was passed-over for any discipline. He could have come in to "save the crew" but the resulting blame was not on him.

AremRed, why are you so concerned about "rebound action". You first need a missed shot for "rebound action". Officiate what is happening at the time it's happening.

As Lead why should you be looking anywhere else? The mechanics manual is written to put officials in the best position to officiate plays in their primary areas. Rebounding plays often start before any shot is taken....bodies are banging trying to secure better position. Why would you ever take your eyes off of that to officiate someone else's play? You need to identify the defenders, the small/big matchups, who is displacing who first, etc. and doing that requires focusing on the players in your area as Lead from the start of the action, during the development of the action, through the finishing of the play.

...a guide.

And bodies are not always banging around in the post. Some teams spread the court. Same teams put their post players at the free throw line, etc.

Good officials are expected to referee the particular game they are in and not be paralyzed by a mechanics guide.

So if there is a trap on the sideline below the free throw line extended, and only open angle is from your endline, are you going to come help officiate the play or are you going to continue looking at the post?

I would suggest you put yourself at a 45 degree angle, rather than a 90 degree angle. The bold and underlined part should never happen. This has been advocated against at every college camp I have attended. I will take a peek at the shooter in the corner. I am giving up that look once the ball has left his hand cleanly. That still gives me plenty of time to get any strong side rebound action. I will miss any contact on the shooter after the ball is gone and before he lands, but I will protect him until the ball is released. After that, I will rely on the T to get the other stuff. I have to agree with BNR and JRut, two college officials, on this play. All supervisors and clinicians are going to want you to get the contact on the shooter before the rebounding play. JRut and I have gone to a camp here in Chicago run by a D1 official who has worked the championship game multiple times. Every year he stresses the importance of the L helping the T protect the shooter deep in the corner.

I debated using the word back and should have left it out. It's more my shoulder/side. If I am halfway between close down and the 3 point line and I am 45 degrees to each play then I am facing parallel the endline. If the corner is 90 degrees to my right, then I am primarily facing the low block, which is what I see every official on tv doing.

I wish the mechanics manual would come out and explicitly state that the Lead can peek at the corner three.

If you're only halfway from closedown to the 3-point line when the ball is outside the 3-point line, you're probably too close to the lane.

That's what I was thinking as this thread has been going on, that Arem must not be going out far enough when the ball is wide on the strong side

How could he, the mechanics manual doesn't allow him. Plus all the rebounding action he would miss if he ventures to far away.

BTW, is this the same mechanics manuals that the coaches and players use to diagram their plays around?

100% pure baloney. Rebounding, by definition, is what happens AFTER a shot is missed. A shot is needed for any "rebounding" plays to begin. By your logic I can say that scoring plays start in practice. Does that mean we need to show up 24 hours before the game to get in position during a teams practice?

Stop thinking, just officiate the action going on at the moment, you sound like you focus on a grain of sand. Our job is to police the beach.

I Agree with AremRed, here. The jockeying to be in position for a rebound does sometimes start before the shot it taken....but covering the immediate play is always the most important, not the potential next play.

The NFHS manual can not, and will not cover all situations. But even in the manual it states:

The phrase "it's not my area" isn't one I'm interested in hearing as a supervisor. As a coach, I'm even less inclined to listen to it.

I've been at camps where I was the guy saving the crew. The clinician is still pissed, but mainly because the primary didn't put a whistle on it and he's questioning his judgment / ability.

I've also passed on something when I didn't feel I had the best look. Best response there is to be silent and hope you don't get yelled at, too. Not the best position to be in.

On the play we are discussing here, I agree this would be a poor explanation. However, your second sentence makes me laugh. I don't have any problem saying you are asking the wrong guy or worse when a dumbass coach asks me about a play outside of the top of the key when I am the L in a 3 man game. Truthfully, how the **** would I know what is happening out there.

It's much different to say, "I was looking elsewhere" than "That's not my area."

+1.

This is a very poor post.
Plenty of rebounding fouls occur while the ball is in flight on the way to the basket as players attempt to obtain the best possible position in case of a miss.
AremRed has a legitimate point. Both are important and officials must make a choice about where to look and when. Deciding when to help and when to focus on one's primary is one of the difficulties faced by higher level officials.

Play happened this weekend in camp !!!!
 

Both observers ( combined 155 D1 games this year ) insisted that the L needs to make a call on this play. Get wide enough take a peek as the shot goes up and be prepared to blow.

Think how foolish it looks, as you are standing 3 ft from the play and you don't blow because of "potential" post problems !!! BALONEY !!!

As the C, I will be all over the rebouding coverage, knowing that my L is "helping the trail " for a split second.

This post I think ties it all together. Coverage area is a guideline. If all ten player are on one side of the court and t and L are over there, does that mean that because the C has no one in their coverage area that he or she can just quit refereeing for a bit until some one crosses the magic line back into the C's area? Of course not. I think a big part of coverage area is match ups.

If I have four players in my PCA, two of which are bodie up fighting for position and two who aren't doing anything, who am I going to watch? The two bodied up.
In the play referenced in the OP, C has an important job and. That would be any match ups that era closest to him. It is Very unlikely in this play that anyone opposite the ball across the court would be doing anything that would warrant full attention. It is very likely that the nearest active match ups for C would be the impending rebounding action under the basket. That is where C should be helping out so T and L can cover their closest match ups. This play, just like any play, takes all three officials to do properly. They all need game awareness and full court awareness to everyone know what everyone is watching all of the time. Just my 2 cents.

Exactly. The C is more than capable of helping with the rebounding action if the Lead is looking away for a second.

I sometimes teach that if the ball is in your PCA, you have the matchup that includes the ball. The other two officials divide the other four matchups up -- each taking the two that are closest to him / her (with adjustments when that "math" doesn't quite work out).

It's not a rule -- but it does help get the point across.

And, everyone needs to be *aware* of the ball and that match-up.

The issue, of course, is that one big-dog will think contact is big enough to get from across the court, and another will see the same contact and say to leave it alone.

I hope if i have to work with you in two weeks that you will be a great "help" official !!!!:D:D:D