To Another Player: "You F***ing Suck."
 

High school club teams. Team A was up by 20 points in the first half and Team B had no chance in this game. They were completely outclassed. According to one of my partners A1 was a dbag in a previous game and got a T. During our game he maintained our attention as a problem child but nothing past the point of just being on our radar. I had called a foul on him earlier and he tried the stare-down thing, which I ignored with a 1000 yard stare in another direction. Fast forward to a play to the basket and A1 makes a layup with a bit of contact, on which I pass. B1 says something chippy and A1, doing a backward skippy kind of trot says to B1, "You ain't nothing. You f***ing suck." as we were going up the court. Tweet, flagrant T. Partners don't like it as a flagrant AT ALL. The bigger dog on the game has college experience and ripped me thusly:
"You don't go with a flagrant there. You try that bulls**t in college and you'll have your games taken away or even get fired. That's just bad."
Smaller dog: "A1's team had travelled two hours to be here. They paid to be here. Let him hang himself and we'll run him with his second T."
etc, etc.

Evidently it was a big deal for running a kid for saying what he did. I would like to get a few other opinions about what is and is not a flagrant T.

Background: I am going to my first JC tryout camp this summer. I'm not a young pup but somewhat new to the officiating corps (with five years experience) and have nextlevelitis. I must admit, this shook my confidence in my judgement. I thought it was an easy one because the next steps would have resulted in a fight. I know there are no shortcuts but I'd like to learn the differences between junior college basketball players and coaches and the HS level so I'm not a doormat and then criticized for having no backbone.

Thoughts?

If it were a HS or college game, I'd agree with the advice you received.

Rec league game, no problem with what you called. Could you have called only a T? Sure. And you would likely have a chance for the 2nd one later if he was truly trouble.

Going straight to the flagrant takes a little bit of guts. Kudo to you for not taking the easy way out.

We ain't in college, Jack. These are high school kids. I'm with you. This is unacceptable.

HS age players? Flagrant T, not even a second thought.

I actually disagree with Cameron. In an organized HS game, I'm going flagrant T just as quickly.

If this was a high school game I probably would have no problem if someone ruled this flagrant. It would depend on the tone of the game. Some off season mess, I really have no problem with a flagrant. They are happy to even be playing anything at that time. I have less tolerant for any crap in the off-season.

Peace

In a HS game, I know I'm going to be supported by the people I'm writing reports for.

Meaning just the T, or class A in a college game, right?

Just for funsies, what if we take the f-word out of the equation? Just the T, yes? This was a first for me.

I got a T for what he said. If he throws out a racial slur for example I would upgrade to Flagrant. But just for what he said I don't see a flagrant.

However, with that said, my tolerance depends on the time and place.

A1 did respond to some provocation (B1 said "something chippy"), which might have lessened my response from flagrant to ordinary T, but I'm not going to secondguess you for making that call in the context as you saw it. I also think your partners could have been a little more supportive: the fact is it was not a college game and for the big dog to call it bullsh*t and "that's just bad" was to question your judgment. And I'd make no distinction between HS and HS rec league--either way, the language and conduct are unacceptable.

No problem with that. I suppose it would really depend on the rest of what was happening in the game for me. I could see going flagrant or not.

College level, perhaps a class A T is good.

HS ball, have a good day, son. If they paid that much money to come play, they will need to have a better understanding of what's expected.

I hope your partners didn't rip you on the court for that.

Had a game this year where I mentioned I heard some f bombs floating around to a coach, he asked, "Towards you?" I replied, "No." He looked at me with this dumb look on his face, like they can talk junk to each other but not to an official. I replied to his dumb look with, "If I hear it again, they're gone."

No place for junk talk and F bombs in HS athletics, period.

I couldn't pin down who said the original F bomb, otherwise I would have chatted with him.

"you suck" = tech
"you f'n suck" = ejection

I'm not a college official, so I'm not going to pretend to know what's best there. But as a high school official, and this involving high school age kids (in season or not), I see the first one as taunting, and worthy of a tech. The second one, with the f bomb, is worthy of an ejection.

Your partners sound like a-holes. Especially the first guy, as there's no reason to talk down to you like that. The second guy because his reasoning for not calling the flagrant tech is ridiculous. Travelling far and/or paying to play does not give anybody the right to act a fool.

I've had senior officials talk down to me, too. Not that bad, but enough that it angered me. I had to learn to separate the message from the way it was delivered.

I'm curious what the player for Team B actually said. I mean, was what he said perhaps worthy of a regular tech?

There are some who say that the amateur game has past me by, but I still believe that certain type of conduct has always and will always be unacceptable.

A college athlete dropping an F-bomb is unacceptable conduct deserving of being ejected. Those people who attend college are students first. Those students who participate in extracurricular activities that athletes second.

MTD, Sr.

At the college level they are after all adults. If you expect to only hear nice words, that is very unrealistic. Just because they are students does not change that fact. Ever go to a college party?

And I am not advocating for bad language, just knowing that you would have to T up everyone if we penalized college players for bad language, including the F-word.

And if a kid dislocates their ankle or blows out a knee, I am probably not going to be so eager to penalize them for using the F-word in a moment of pain, no matter the age. Context can still matter in these situations.

Peace

I have seen expectations of various aspects of our business as being similar to those in the rest of the world. (general appearance, how to dress on arrival, etc.) I think that applies here. Is it acceptable for opponents in a business meeting to scream profanity at each other during a conflict? I think not. With that in mind, it is not unreasonable to expect the same amount of restraint during the game. If a player blows out his ACL, I can see letting pretty much anything slide, but a verbal assault on an opponent I see as unacceptable. I personally would apply the same standards for college, but I yield to others for what is the acceptable standard there. As stated by Rich, I am confident I would have backing from above in enforcement of this concept here.

Flagrant tech sounds good to me.

You don't get paid enough during the offseason to put up with such crap. Kid needs to learn to keep his mouth shut if he wants to play.

What are high school "club" teams? Is that something less than Varsity?

Off season ball, lots of travel. I wouldn't call them "less than varsity," but I certainly put up with less in the off season for two reasons.

1. These coaches don't answer to an AD, so sometimes we have to tamp down the behavior at an earlier point.

2. They pay is significantly less. I'll give my full effort to the game, but I'm not going to expend much effort trying to prevent a T here. The deterrent effect is valuable. I'm not there to make friends.

Either that, or they are kids that are "Varisty" aged but are not on any school team. Just a glorified rec league.

Big red warning sign at the start of the game.


Given what you knew coming into the game that might have been enough to either address him or even ring him up. Regardless, if the kid who might put s#$! into your game pulls one of those ignoring him may not be the best option.


I won't fault you for running the kid but it sounds as though he was provoked in this instance. Since the other kid mouthed off first it probably would've been good to get them both.


1. It's not a college game.
2. It's not your fault the team traveled two hours and paid to be there. If the kid wants to play an entire game - at his current level or the next - he'll learn to keep his mouth shut.

Ultimately, use it as a learning experience.

What JetMet said jogged my memory; this is definitely a "Get away from me Steve" situation.

It was run of the mill woofing that, if A1 didn't say anything, would have warranted a talking-to as we're heading up the court and if A1 would have said anything other than the magic adjective, I'd like to think I would have had a double T.


They did, but it was when we we came together to discuss it. I was unhappy with that but I'm trying to implement "separate the message from the delivery" concept.


Yep, a glorified rec league. I'm pretty sure there's no official AAU affiliation. Coaches around here will charge a lot of money per month per kid and they'll have several levels, up to high school kids. Some games are played mostly on Saturdays but for the most part, games are played in tournaments during the summer, with some kids playing on two different teams. It seems hectic and chaotic to me, but I've never been involved in any of that...

At this point I still wanted to give him the benefit of a fresh start and didn't want to take the bait. I wasn't going to pick up the rope in his tug-of-war offer.


Definitely, but it becomes more valuable with what's been offered here. Thanks to everyone.

I would avoid putting too much emphasis on who is the bigger dog during the game, especially when any part of what the biggest dog is saying is not relevant to the situation at hand. (in college games we.......) As stated earlier, how far the team traveled has zero to do with anything, no matter what the level.

You're working this game together. For today, you're all the same size dog.

I'm burning this in!

As my confidence rises, my backbone stiffens.

Whatever game I'm working, I avoid any type of conversation at all about any higher level ball I may work. Has nothing to do with that day's game.

Did this happen during the game (during a timeout or other break)? OR in the locker room after or at halftime?

I've never had an experience where a partner would make a scene and question a call out on the floor -- I guess I've been lucky in that regards. If my partners started questioning a call like that during a game, I'd say something like "let's talk about it at halftime/post game; nothing that can be changed now" and then walk away.

It happened when we got together to discuss next steps. There was some eye rolling and grimacing away from the bench that any official off the court would have noticed but other than that they weren't loud about it or making a scene. I mentioned in an earlier post that I wasn't happy about how they handled it but didn't want to fuss because I'm trying to learn 3 whistle mechanics. As I'm remembering how it went down I did say to both of them "Well I went with a flagrant." and did walk away, so at least I have a little dignity. :)

When I first started I was calling a 7th grade girls game. My partner was filling in to help his brother (who assigned the games) and I knew he called lower level D1 games. I called something and during the next time our he started lecturing me on why I should have held my whistle. When he said "In my D1 college games that call would not have been made." I just looked at him and said "And yet you are calling girls junior high B ball...same as me."

He didn't even talk to me the rest of the game he was so hissed off...guess I made my point.

Sounds like you took the important part and are planning to use it. Best you can hope for sometimes.

If somebody has to mention that they officiate higher level games, then I have to question how they came to do those higher level games. It's like what they say about cool people... a person that is truly cool doesn't have to say it.

Maybe, but in most associations, you know who the big dogs are. Here, in summer ball, there are a lot of guys who work state tournaments, college, etc. It's a large group, but not so large you don't know which guys are the ones you should listen to.

Not sure how "You f'ing suck" is not at least a T...and no problems at all with you tossing the kid.

Big Dawgs screw up sometimes, too.

Folks may or may not know what I work, but when I give advise I never bring ip where I work. I will say things like 'as you move up. . .' or 'as you officiate better athletes'.

I guess that's about the best way to handle it -- probably just what I would have done like I said. I'd want to know what they thought ... I'd just want to know later after the game when there is more time for a discussion about the play.

He may be right in college, but high school? Flagrant T.

Irrelevant. Distance travelled is not a ticket to poor sportsmanship.

FWIW, I had a weekend soccer tournament last fall, and the team that traveled the furthest had the worst sportsmanship. I had to toss the coach in the fifth minute. A parent actually crossed the field to complain about the distance they travelled to see the coach get tossed. (He enjoyed getting tossed, too, until he learned that meant out of sight and sound.)

It cuts both ways. I had a men's charity tournament today. Two Ts, but they both shook my hand and apologized after their games. You smile and move on.

We got your back, Rooster. You did the right thing.

Agreed, but a Big Dawg screwing up shouldn't involve berating a newer official on the court, no matter how "privately" it was done.

The "smaller dog" actually used the team traveled two hours to play excuse? I'm sorry but that doesn't give anyone from that team the right to taunt, cuss or trash talk. I hope the "big dog" didn't utter what he did toward you on the court.

Like others have said the advice you recieved seems sound. However, if Mr. Big dog came at me with this precieved attitude it makes him no better than the a-hole you bounced. A bully is a bully. Opportunities to learn are just that, and if he thinks himself a mentor he loses me immediately.

That is pretty much what I was talking about...his screw up was in how he addressed his partner.

I had a game this year where one of my partners learned I was interested in working a college league that he used to work 3-4 years ago. He took it upon himself to "correct" several mechanical things that I did after the game. He said "if you want to work this league, you need to do things this way". The whole time I was thinking "who the hell are you to instruct me??" I smiled, said ok, and moved on.

Even if he wasn't entirely correct, he may have been well intentioned and ust wanted to see you succeed. If you listen to him, he just might have the one thing that makes the difference in you getting in...or he might not. But considering it is harmless at worst. In my experience, I've seen far more officials lie (overly positive) about how you did than be honest and try to help each other. Why not thank him for the heads up.

Officiating is like life, you pick up "pennies." That does not mean that everything he told you was on point, but if you take one or two things away from what he told you, you might have been better for it. But it sounds like your ego was more worried about what he wasn't and you probably missed a slight blessing. This is why attitude is sometimes everything. Take the wrong attitude you miss out on the right help.

Peace

Unless there's more to the story, I don't see anything malicious here on your partner's part. :confused:

Yeah, I know. I would just have a hard time not writing off everything else that guy said. I'd smile, nod, and say the right things, but the message would get lost with the messenger on this.

The problem was his superior attitude. I know who to ask for advice, and when I ask I listen. I don't listen very often to unsolicited advice, cuz it's usually crap. And his was.

If you are more concerned with tone than message, you are going to miss out on some good advice in this avocation.

"If you want to work this league" doesn't sound "instuctional", sounds "informational"; and it's something you'll hear directly from supervisors also.

I'd rather hear it before I get in front of a supervisor, not after I get in front of a supervisor.


My personal motto: "If I suck, please be candid and tell me. If I'm good, please tell a supervisor"

Do you now work for the supervisor in question and have found the unsolicited advice to be inaccurate?

I'm actually pretty good at picking up advice, and I almost always ask when I'm working with someone more advanced than I am. I won't say I'm "more concerned" with the delivery, but it's part of the package.

Most of the guys with good advice have to have it pulled, and to be honest, I've never had a partner do the stuff in the OP. I'd likely take the advice (separating tone from message is a learned skill that serves one well in the military) and parse it in my head, smile and nod, thank him for his advice, and can the bulk of it. If it's good advice, I'm likely to hear it from other officials who aren't dicks about it.

Oh really?!
 

Epilogue...
Big Dawg was working the championship game of this tournament and there was a foul early. The temperature of the game was rising a little and as he's administering the free throws he tells the players "We've got a good game here with two good teams. Don't f**k up my game, alright? Let's play hard and enjoy it. Don't f**k it up. Don't you f**k up my game." I put my chin in my chest and mentally shrugged.

What level is this (I've lost track)? Because at just about everything above HS, I have no problem with this being said (relatively quietly to the players)

This was, according to the OP, HS summer rec league.

I'm not sure what I think of it there, except it's probably regional. No way I could get away with it here (some might, but not me). Some areas, it may be standard practice. It comes across to me as a college tool.

I know officials who have used comments like these. They have far more job security than I have. :D

As much as coaches curse at players, and players curse at teammates, depending where you are, it's not that big of a deal, IMO.

Personally, I would not curse, nor consider it "my game." It would be difficult to justify tossing a player for uttering a profanity if I've used it myself.

I have no problem with the preventive approach, though. Working HS age and below, I've used similar statements in soccer and baseball, but never so broadly in basketball.

Honestly, the guy sounds like he used to be a military instructor.

I've been known to remind players to "keep your heads" or "don't do anything stupid."

No F Word In My Game (Unless Someone Breaks A Leg) ...
 

Agree 100%.