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-   -   Shooting Foul? (Video) (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/97590-shooting-foul-video.html)

Raymond Tue Mar 25, 2014 02:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 928871)
Yep. If it looks like the start of a shot, it is the start of a shot...

Since you are always condescending to towards another posters about "the rules", please tell me where that is written in the rules.

Adam Tue Mar 25, 2014 02:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 928874)
Quit with the nonsense. PGs going to the hole (not Reggie Miller taking a jump shot) take off the same way whether passing or shooting. Guess nobody in Oregon never drives and kicks out. :rolleyes:

Maybe the jump looks the same, but more is required. There are arm motions associated with the start of a shot. A PG who goes up as if he's shooting and gets fouled is getting the benefit of the doubt from me and getting FTs.

Raymond Tue Mar 25, 2014 02:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 928884)
Maybe the jump looks the same, but more is required. There are arm motions associated with the start of a shot. A PG who goes up as if he's shooting and gets fouled is getting the benefit of the doubt from me and getting FTs.

Must be a regional thing.

Adam Tue Mar 25, 2014 03:12pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 928886)
Must be a regional thing.

Might be.

I'm not saying it's automatic, but he's going to have to prove otherwise, IMO.

just another ref Tue Mar 25, 2014 03:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 928864)

That action looks the same whether passing or shooting.

If you can't tell what it is you have a problem. You have to decide......before the foul. Because what happens afterward doesn't matter, according to the NFHS.

Camron Rust Tue Mar 25, 2014 04:48pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 928875)
Since you are always condescending to towards another posters about "the rules", please tell me where that is written in the rules.

You've been given the rules, and a very clear interpretation that goes with them that says exactly that. It is up to you to just accept that and call it as has been specified. I can't make you, but if you don't, that says a lot about you, not me.
If not, it has become abundantly clear that you really don't care what the rules are and you're going to do what you want regardless.

As for my attitude, I started with a simple statement that a claim YOU made was NOT supported by rules. Rather than support your claim by rule, you deflect and divert the discussion away from your claim by asking me to prove your claim wrong. That is not the way things work. You made the claim, it is you that has to support your claim. If you can't support it (and you have yet to provide anything resembling support for it), then your claim is not true. I showed you the rules that apply, and all you did amounted to mostly a bunch of chest thumping, calling it judgement even though judgement is supposed to be based on the rules. If you want to think you're bigger than the game and can just make up your own stuff, of course I'm going to be condescending.

You still continue to avoid providing any support for you claim hiding behind "judgement" even when THE authoritative source says your judgement is wrong and try to turn it back on me to disprove your claim. That sort of deflection is a tactic of someone who simply can't support their own claims and try to win not by merely attacking the opponent rather than addressing the topic.

You may be a successful official and can get away with bullshitting your way around the rules most of the time but at least be honest that you're doing so to those that actually know the rules.

JRutledge Tue Mar 25, 2014 05:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 928907)
You still continue to avoid providing any support for you claim hiding behind "judgement" even when THE authoritative source says your judgement is wrong and try to turn it back on me to disprove your claim. That sort of deflection is a tactic of someone who simply can't support their own claims and try to win not by merely attacking the opponent rather than addressing the topic.

You may be a successful official and can get away with bullshitting your way around the rules most of the time but at least be honest that you're doing so to those that actually know the rules.

Didn't we have the NF Rules Editor give a ruling based and ignore the previous interpretation? Sorry, I do not put much stock in people that cannot even follow their own interpretations consistently and use standards from other levels.

And in the real world players do no-look passes and all kinds of jump passes so they fool their opponents. Sorry but they do a lot of things that look the same.

Peace

just another ref Tue Mar 25, 2014 05:43pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 928911)
Didn't we have the NF Rules Editor give a ruling based and ignore the previous interpretation?

What ruling would that be and what was the previous interpretation?

Camron Rust Tue Mar 25, 2014 05:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 928911)
Didn't we have the NF Rules Editor give a ruling based and ignore the previous interpretation? Sorry, I do not put much stock in people that cannot even follow their own interpretations consistently and use standards from other levels.

And in the real world players do no-look passes and all kinds of jump passes so they fool their opponents. Sorry but they do a lot of things that look the same.

Peace

We have seen some interpretations that have been completely inconsistent with what is in the rules but that isn't the case here...they match up very well. You can't just throw out any interpretation you don't like just because they've made a few bad ones in the past.

You're paid to know the difference between a no-look pass and a shot that is abandoned after being fouled. To me, they don't look alike. You can't tell the difference? Maybe that is an area for you to work on.

just another ref Tue Mar 25, 2014 05:46pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 928911)

And in the real world players do no-look passes and all kinds of jump passes so they fool their opponents. Sorry but they do a lot of things that look the same.

Peace


This doesn't even address the argument at hand. Granted players have moves that it is difficult to tell at the start what will happen, but it is still up to us to decide before the foul.

If the player pushes the ball toward the basket after the contact, do you always give him the two shots?

JRutledge Tue Mar 25, 2014 06:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 928917)
This doesn't even address the argument at hand. Granted players have moves that it is difficult to tell at the start what will happen, but it is still up to us to decide before the foul.

If the player pushes the ball toward the basket after the contact, do you always give him the two shots?

If it is in doubt, I give them shots. Like when the ball is completely knocked out of their hand or they are prevented by the contact to even control the ball anymore. If it is clearly an attempt to pass after the fact, I am inclined to not give shots or FTs.

Peace

Camron Rust Tue Mar 25, 2014 06:38pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 928925)
If it is in doubt, I give them shots. Like when the ball is completely knocked out of their hand or they are prevented by the contact to even control the ball anymore. If it is clearly an attempt to pass after the fact, I am inclined to not give shots or FTs.

Peace

So, given the clear rules and interpretation that matches, as mentioned above, you will consciously and deliberately call it in opposition to the official interpretation?

JRutledge Tue Mar 25, 2014 06:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 928926)
So, given the clear rules and interpretation that matches, as mentioned above, you will consciously and deliberately call it in opposition to the official interpretation?

Well first of all we did not have a contrary interpretation until recently. If I recall the interpretation says that if the foul is clear during the shooting motion that you should award shots. Well that is always not as clear. I am good with my application of this rule. If the NF wants better, they have the ability to post videos. ;)

Peace

just another ref Tue Mar 25, 2014 06:59pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 928930)
Well first of all we did not have a contrary interpretation until recently. If I recall the interpretation says that if the foul is clear during the shooting motion that you should award shots. Well that is always not as clear. I am good with my application of this rule. If the NF wants better, they have the ability to post videos. ;)

Peace

Interpretation says if it's clear award shots.

Your answer is "But it's not always clear."

wow

Camron Rust Tue Mar 25, 2014 06:59pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 928930)
Well first of all we did not have a contrary interpretation until recently. If I recall the interpretation says that if the foul is clear during the shooting motion that you should award shots. Well that is always not as clear. I am good with my application of this rule. If the NF wants better, they have the ability to post videos. ;)

Peace

The interpretation has existed for over 10 years....not like it just came out. And it matches what the rules say and have said forever, despite those that want to act like they don't exist.

So your final answer is yes, you're going to ignore the official interpretation and will continue to apply your own personal interpretation.


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