This is so blatantly wrong I can no longer take any other thing you might say on here seriously. ALL that matters is what he was doing at the moment of the foul. Whatever happens afterward is completely irrelevant - and the rule says pretty much exactly that.

Wow.

So if you are officiating, all I need do as a defender is wrap up the shooters arms so that he can't continue to shoot...then he won't get any free throws. Nice.

Also, your claim that the offensive player "decided" to pass the ball is wrong. The ball was knocked out by the defender.

I recall a pretty long debate not to long ago where quite a few took just that position. If a player starts to shoot, gets fouled, and then passes the ball, many here are going with a pass and thus no free throws (unless in the bonus).

In the OP, if the player hadn't had the ball knocked away from him, a few more would advocate for no shots.

Back to my point. :D

But yes, it was knocked out, he did not pass it as I orignially thought when I saw it on TV.

This is slightly different, but we had a similar discussion not too long ago. The difference was that in the other play, after the contact, the shooter couldn't complete the shot, so he obviously changed his effort and passed to a teammate. Several said they wouldn't give him free throws if he passed after the foul.

That was wrong then. This is wrong now.

jmo

Depends where you work, and whom you work for.

I remember that. I believe that most, then, were saying that they couldn't award shots if the player passed the ball because they could not read the player's mind and didn't know if he was initially passing or shooting. Arem, however, said "if he gets fouled and decides to pass the ball instead of attempt a shot" - CLEARLY stating that this decision was AFTER the foul. The former is wrong (imho). The latter ... so incredibly wrong it can't be justified.

I really don't see a practical difference between the two.

Like other things we could name, you can call it any way you want and should do what the bosses want. But if you knowingly take away the free throws because contact causes the shooter to change his try to a pass, you have no rules support in doing so.

If you can't tell what he was doing prior to the contact, well, you'll just have to make that decision anyway, one way or the other. Different officials seem to lean in different directions on this.

But in the case I'm remembering, it was a given that it was a shot attempt, but the contact forced the change to a pass. Some said they still wouldn't award free throws. BNR may be one of these and could elaborate.

Correct, 4-41-2 says a player is trying for goal when the player has the ball and in the officials judgement is throwing or attempting to throw for goal". The way I use my officials judgement is through the process that I have explained several times before: I wait until I see the whole play start, develop, and finish and then make my decision on the whole play, not just one aspect. If a player is trying to shoot, they will continue to shoot. If the player passes, he is not trying to shoot.

Correct again. They do not have to release the shot.....but if they try to pass then the try is over; they are no longer shooting and thus are no longer entitled to FT's.

I don't need to call it judgement. The rules themselves call it judgement. You are the one contradicting the rules here -- you are saying this is not s judgement when the rules say it is.

False. My view correlates with what the rulebook says, and I feel I have explained it well. I am not throwing out how the rules define a try, or how they define the start or end of a try.

The rules clearly say it is up to the officials judgement. In my judgement, I use outcome-based decisions. Why would I do otherwise? I cannot read a players mind, I can only call what I see.

Ahhhh yes. Was so astounded by the stupidity of previous comments that I missed your point.

Not sure it was a foul or not. The L sure had a good look though.

It's not only supervisors, it's also coaches. You start giving guys 2 shots on plays where players passed the ball and you'll be getting calls on the drive home after the coach calls the supervisor.

Coaches write the rules. Coaches in every entity I worked expect players that pass the ball after contact not to be awarded a shooting foul.

I agree he had a better look than me. But when I initially saw the play I'm thinking 1) that's not a foul 2) that's not a shooting foul. That combination had me verklempt :)

I'm actually glad the replay showed the official on the spot made the right decision about it being a shooting foul.

My opinion about the contact is just Armchair Officiating.

When the foul went against their team, I'm sure that's true.

Again, this expectation flies in the face of the rule, as written. If coaches don't like this rule, they should see that it's changed.