Verbally counting during a throw-in
 

Late in a close game, Team A has a backcourt endline throw-in coming out of a timeout. Team B is in a heavy full-court press, and has already been successful at causing a few 5-second throw-in violations earlier in the game.

Thrower A1 asks you to give a verbal count along with your regular arm count.

Do you oblige her request?

No. I think it might state somewhere in one of the books (officials manual or rules book) that the count is "silent and visible". The Coach (or any other player for that matter) can watch the visual count and verbalize if they wish (or request a timeout if the count gets to 4).

Only have last year's book with me, but the officals manual, 2.2.2.A.8 (General Throw in Provisions) states:
"The administering official shall begin the five-second count when the ball is at the thrower's disposal. The count is silent and visible"

Agreed. Do not count out loud.

No I do not oblige. The coach can watch my arm swing and keep his own count.

Never, you are giving the team with the ball an advantage.

Peace

Do not count out loud. How do you respond if the inbound defender counts out loud? We've got a team here that has adopted it.

After a couple of games where they were warned to stop and tech'd up once, the coach/AD conctacted our assignor. It was determined that as there was no rule preventing them from counting or calling out numbers to indicate/communicate amongst defenders so long as they didn't use their count to argue or incite we had to let it go. When she gets to 5 well before my count she keeps yelling 5 over and over lol.

You don't ... unless it is during a free throw, which could be considered disconcerting.

That's unsporting, and it's also deceptive. I'd put a stop to it, and frankly your association needs to stand up and say it.

I don't agree with this. It could potentially be unsporting I suppose, but counting out loud in and of itself is not unsporting. The defense could have a legitimate reason for wanting to count out loud and I'm certainly not penalizing the act of counting out loud. Perhaps the defense is fronting the offense and the on-ball defender is sharing information with his/her teamates.

If the counting were to be penalized, it would be for the "how", not the "what", and it would take a lot for me to go this route when it could simply be ignored.

And as far as being deceptive ... defenses should be allowed to be deceptive as long as that deception doesn't violate any rules. You wouldn't penalize a team for deceptively yelling out "2-3 zone, 2-3 zone" only to actually play a full court press. Why would any other deceptive verbal communication be any different?

Do you believe it when coaches say, "I'm not talking to you."?

It would depend ... but it's also irrelevent to any penalty I'm going to assess. If I heard "that's terrible" from the coach, I'm not waiting to clarify whether or not it was directed at me to make a decision. If I'm turning to address the coach after hearing that, I've already made up my mind as to whether its a warning or a T

In the post that started this part of the discussion, it was stated that the defender gets to 5 well before the official's count and then yells 5 over and over.

That is either being done to try to draw a call from us or to show us up. It's going to get a "Knock it off" from me and a word to the Coach about it asap, and if they keep doing it, it will result in a T being called.

The reason I asked is actually in rockyroad's post - it's irrelevant why the team says they're doing it. I'd argue that they are doing it in an unsportsmanlike way.

Absolutely not!! The job to figure out the count isn't the players, it's the coach-assistant coaches. But sometimes the player taking the ball out is heads up to know what the count is and call time out before a violation.

I've seen this done a few times and I never felt it was either of those, or even directed towards us. I always thought it was just to try and rush the inbounder in their mind...

Maybe if they just count 1-2-3-4-5 really fast...but if they get there and are yelling 5-5-5-5 over and over, that's a different story.

I understand that point if it is unsportsmanlike. I'd just be somewhat hesitent to go down the route of penalizing "counting".

If they got to the point where they had yelled "five" over an over then, either 1) their initial count was so commically fast that it couldn't be seriously and probably directed at the thrower to add confusion (like yelling "ball ball ball" while guarding the opponent), or 2) the official needs to practice the timing of his/her count as it probably is slow. I just tried it and took me 2 seconds to yell "five" four times.

I just can't realistically picture this happening in a manner as extreme as is being suggested. But "technicals" tend to call themselves, and it one is needed in this case, it should be obvious to everyone.

How about a player counting out loud 1-2-3 on a player in the paint? Or a coach?

I wouldn't hesitate. If they want to stand there and yell "ball ball ball" I won't touch it. But if they're counting, they're going to stop (one way or another).

Would you allow the defensive players to start counting down early at the end of the quarter?

Not that uncommon, especially from coaches. Although I have seen it work to cause an offensive player to leave the lane once they realize that everyone on the court has been made aware of their spot on the court.

As an official, I ignore the coach/players count--half of the time its during a series of shots where there is no count anyway :) --and I maintain my own count if its in my PCA.

I put this in the category of players calling for "and one" as then run back on defense after a made basket. Ignored 99% of the time. The 1% of the time where it is done in a manner can't be ignored, then it is penalized.

Again, yes ... what is the rules basis for penalizing this? Everyone knows that the scoreboard has the official time, not the defensive players. The only live ball instance I can think of where a player is entitled to a distraction-free environment is during a free-throw.

Lots of courts have the score board placed in a position not visible to an offensive player facing one or both baskets.

Distraction is fine (ball ball ball), deception of this sort is not part of basketball. It's not gamesmanship. It's bush league, and it's unsporting.

It's one thing if the student section is doing it (then it's just bush league), but when the team does it, it's unsporting.

In the case of a live ball count, it's either an attempt to influence a call, show up an official, or deceive the offense.

Asking for 3 seconds, or 5 second, or 10 seconds, is not the same as counting to 3, 5, or 10 out loud for everyone to hear. Personally, I don't put up with the former if it's done regularly (ignoring it generally does not make it go away), but there is no leeway for the latter.

That's one way of NOT getting me to make that call. They will get the message real quick. And if they ask I can reply, "Every time you start counting I forget what number I was on."

If they want to yell BALL, BALL, BALL, or DEAD,DEAD,DEAD play on. Counting while we are inbounding the ball is bush league. Just like screaming at someone from behind on a lay up. For what ever reason this generally finds it's way into girls basketball. I would address this immediately and then re-administer the throw-in. If they do it again, Whack. It's unsporting, not part of the game, and if let go will only cause issues.

Though the rule states the count is silent, does it prevent you from initiating a verbal "one", and a silent count from there, as an indication that you have begun your count?

The logic behind is that not every referee hands the ball off on the baseline the same way and uses the same method to initiate the count. This lets the inbounder know the count has begun.

Thoughts?

Attempting to influence an official's decision is a technical foul. That phrase may be listed under the bench/head coach section though.

Otherwise the question becomes if the counting is unsporting behavior.

I have to agree with Hokie here, there is not basis for penalizing in this instance. I for one think the counting on the inbounds issue is OK, and to some degree I understand the strategy, but I certainly see the point of others thinking it is unsporting. But for the end of the quarter? Hell half the idiots on the offensive team's bench are doing it by counting too fast anyways. Calling that an unsporting T is fishing for trouble...

Let Me Do The Counting ...
 

"Knock it off."

+1

I guess I should have read your post earlier and saved myself the key strokes.:D

I couldn't agree more

Thanks for the responses. Your conversation here basically mimicked the one we had at our last association meeting in regards to it.

Basically it came down to we can't tech them up or ask them to stop because they aren't in violation of any rule. We wouldn't tech up a kid for calling "ball" or players calling out stunts and switches defensively.

Their coaches claim is that they communicate timing issues and adjust defensive technique/strategy based on call.

We also aren't talking middle school house league here. This is a strong varsity girls team with mutliple presses/stunts they run defensively being coached by a former university coach.

If they are doing to it to incite the crowd or question officials we can then respond appropriately. In fairness to the team involved no coach or player has ever question or asked about a 5 second call though I've only done 2-3 of their games.

I don't care why they say they're doing it, they're not doing it in my game. There's no rule specifically addressing lots of things we deem unsporting, this is no different.