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-   -   Use of own backboard (not a try) (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/97354-use-own-backboard-not-try.html)

Adam Sun Feb 23, 2014 11:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toren (Post 924300)
Well it's clearly not a shot, I think we would all agree with that.

And I'm sure if he did this same thing and the ball had contacted the rim, we would NOT reset the shot clock.

And it's not a pass, since a pass by rule is to another player.

So the part of the rule that I think is important is "In order for a pass to be completed, the ball shall touch another player." (4-24 NCAA)

To me this is the same as Player A1 throwing a ball toward Player A2. Realizing that B2 is about to steal it he hesitates and lofts it. A1 then proceeds to catch the ball himself after taking a number of steps. The ball never touches the ground.

So I'm just visualizing the play without the ball striking the backboard.

What would your ruling be in my situation? And if you rule it differently then the play posted, why?
You're right, but all levels have made it clear they want it legal to throw the ball off of the backboard to dunk. The reasoning they give is that it's legal to throw it off of your backboard, but there's no logical distinction between a player dunking it and just catching it and landing.

BillyMac Sun Feb 23, 2014 12:08pm
Blue Back Speller ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam (Post 924281)
Where is the "self pass" prohibited in the rules? For that matter, where is it defined?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toren (Post 924300)
And it's not a pass, since a pass by rule is to another player. "In order for a pass to be completed, the ball shall touch another player." (4-24 NCAA).
NFHS 4-31: A pass is movement of the ball caused by a player who throws, bats or rolls the ball to another player.

From Noah Webster (who used to live right down the street from me):

1) In football, hockey, and other team sports, a transfer of the ball, puck, etc., to another player of one's own team, usually at some distance. In American football, the pass is through the air by an act of throwing the ball.

2) To emit or discharge from a bodily part and especially the bowels (which has a lot to do with the rule references, explanation, and validation, behind this caseplay).

HawkeyeCubP Sun Feb 23, 2014 12:30pm
I feel that the issue here centers around the use of one's own backboard. To get into the definition of a pass and whether or not an official judges the ball movement in these cases to meet that or not is irrelevant, as the case plays in all rule sets clearly state that it's not a violation to throw the ball agains one's own backboard (some of which then go on to say the thrower catches the ball). The issue, as Adam has stated, is whether it matters that the ball, when thrown off one's own backboard, comes back and is touched or caught by the thrower who is either still in contact with the floor or not.

BillyMac Sun Feb 23, 2014 12:56pm
Caseplay Versus Rules ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP (Post 924309)
... the case plays in all rule sets clearly state that it's not a violation to throw the ball against one's own backboard (some of which then go on to say the thrower catches the ball).
Many of us, including me, understand the caseplay, but question the actual rules backing for such a caseplay interpretation. Without the caseplay, I would call this, unless they were airborne the entire time, traveling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP (Post 924309)
The issue, as Adam has stated, is whether it matters that the ball, when thrown off one's own backboard, comes back and is touched or caught by the thrower who is either still in contact with the floor or not.
Can that player, after catching their own legal (made legal by the throw against his own backboard, according to the caseplay) "self pass" (in quotes, because, according to rule, there is no such thing), start a dribble after landing, as they would legally be able to do if it was a try? I would call this an illegal dribble with, or without, the caseplay.

AremRed Sun Feb 23, 2014 01:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam (Post 924281)
Where is the "self pass" prohibited in the rules?

For that matter, where is it defined?
It's a colloquial term, don't get hung up on it.

dahoopref Sun Feb 23, 2014 03:30pm
Same play?

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/1oBtRd9dDgY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

BillyMac Sun Feb 23, 2014 03:52pm
Caseplay Trumps Written Rules ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dahoopref (Post 924348)
Same play?
NFHS. Case play? Legal. Rules, as presently written, assuming this is not a try? Travel.

Adam Sun Feb 23, 2014 05:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 924325)
It's a colloquial term, don't get hung up on it.
I'm not hung up on it, but I will question it anytime anyone uses the term as the reason (in and of itself) something should be called a violation.

Dexter555 Mon Feb 24, 2014 10:17am
Team Control?
 
There's been debate on whether or not it is considered a try. Would you consider team control to have ended when he released it?

Statistically, if the defense had gotten that off the board, would it be a rebound or a steal if you were keeping the book?

cmcramer Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:27am
Next time I steal a ball in my Old Fat Slow Men's League, I'm gonna streak toward my basket, throw the ball off my backboard once I get to the three point line, catch it and dribble to regain some balance, then I'm gonna do it again near the foul line, and again in the paint. Then I"ll score the basket. This play is made possible by the foot speed of this League"s players....

When the losers on the other team attempt to call a traveling violation, I'll refer them to this thread.

Game time 6:30 tomorrow morning!

BillyMac Mon Feb 24, 2014 05:52pm
It's A Bird, It's A Plane, It's A Try, It's A Pass ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dexter555 (Post 924442)
Would you consider team control to have ended when he released it?
No. It's not a try. It states as much in the thread title. So it's not a try. Is it a pass? If so, there's still team control. If it's not a try, and if it's not a pass, then just what the hell is it?

AremRed Mon Feb 24, 2014 05:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 924521)
No. It's not a try. It states as much in the thread title. So it's not a try. Is it a pass? If so, there's still team control. If it's not a try, and if it's not a pass, then just what the hell is it?
A violation.

Nevadaref Mon Feb 24, 2014 06:02pm
Without the Case Book ruling specifically stating that the action is legal, this would be a violation for an illegal dribble.

HawkeyeCubP Mon Feb 24, 2014 06:56pm
I pretty much agree with most comments so far. I'm just trying to reconcile the rules and the case play. Because this could conceivably happen in a boys' state playoff game in the near future (I see it happening unintended, with the thrower coming down because they don't handle the bounce from the backboard well), and I want to decide how I'd call it.

The only place my brain is finding any kind of solace is that, if possible, this live, loose ball exists outside the realm of a pass, try, dribble, or fumble.

Nevadaref Mon Feb 24, 2014 07:41pm
According to the NFHS Case Book, the proper way to handle this during a game is to rule it a legal play.
Once the ball is thrown off the backboard of the offensive team anyone may go retrieve it and can legally do anything after getting it.


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