Video Request - Syracuse vs Duke (Video)
 

From ESPN:

Syracuse had the ball down 60-58 in the final seconds when Fair drove past Tyler Thornton along the baseline for an apparent tying layup.

But official Tony Greene whistled Fair for charging -- and when Syracuse coach Jim Boeheim shot onto the court to argue, Greene slapped him with two technical fouls and ejected him.

Quinn Cook iced it by hitting three free throws with 10.4 seconds left.

Boheim completely lost it.

The call I want to see is the block and scored bucket for Duke's Parker earlier in the 2nd half. I think that one was an easy PC call that incorrectly went the other way.

What time?

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Edit: Added 2nd play

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10:30 mark of second half.

Some of you may be able to browse to the plays (10:30 and 0:10 second half) here: ESPN3 -- Syracuse vs. Duke

I suggest checking out the whole situation at 10 seconds, some real hair-pulling commentary there.

Looks like a good call to me.

Just watched it. WOW. It looks like he went to signal charge but changed his mind mid-signal and counted it. If he counted it, why no block signal??

Yeah, watching live I had the exact same thought. Body language looked like he wanted to go offense but he changed his mind. The endline camera angle on replay really made it look like a bad ball. But oh well.

And I grew up watching college b-ball with Dickie V as an announcer. I may be one of the few that still enjoys him but his commentary at the end about officials having to let coaches react was ludicrous.

Fortunately, Bilas set him straight.

the blocking foul called against Syracuse earlier in the half was really bad - should have clearly been an offensive foul.

the call near the end of the game was borderline....based on the calls during the year AND the call against Syracuse earlier in the 2nd half, I can see why Boeheim wents nuts...BUT you just can't do that to your team at the end of the game.

As much as I hate to say it, being a big 'Cuse fan, but I don't have a problem with the charging call at the end.

At what point in the drive is the latest a defender can legally get the position required?

Picks up dribble?
Goes up off the pivot foot?

Boeheim has to go to Kim Mulkey's Summer Camp and learn how to remove his jacket.

Full disclosure: I am a Syracuse grad.


On first look - live action of the play at 10 seconds - I thought it was a block. Then on the first replay I thought it was so close that I couldn't be upset with the call either way. Then when I saw the replay from the other end of the court I see the Duke defender stepping toward Fair after the upward motion had started.

From an officiating standpoint, putting myself in Greene's shoes. I thought that was as difficult a block/charge as I've seen this year and I thought it was made tougher by Greene being in mid rotation. I'm not sure he got a great look at the defender as he was looking over his shoulder while rotating across the lane.

Either way, is Vitale insane???? He wouldn't have T'd up Boeheim??? That was an easy ejection and I'm sure no one on here will disagree with that.

NCAA-M as of this year it is when the upward motion of the shooter has started.

But how do you define upward motion?

How about according to the rule?

NCAA 4-17-4-d: "When the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard shall have attained legal guarding position before the opponent begins his upward motion with his hands/arms to shoot or pass."

Hopefully he doesn't show up next year wearing spaghetti straps too!

From the first time I saw the play it was a charge and a player control foul. A great call.

MTD, Sr.

Boeheim's comments about the call being the "worst" call just shows how ignorant of the rules he is. I hope that either the ACC or the NCAA suspends him for at least two games for his actions on the court.

Boeheim has always been a whinner.

MTD, Sr.

So I guess Boeheim would've had to beat down one of the officials for Vitale to consider a T.

You are the final word on this board as to the block/charge, so am I being nitpicky with the slight hop toward the endline and toward the shooter after he gains LGP?

In APG's post look at :40 of the video. That's where I see LGP being established then there is a slight move toward the shooter. In the next replay from behind the basket you can also see the slight adjustment that looks like it is forward and slightly toward the endline.

I suppose I'm probably splitting hairs.

I see what you are talking about. I think that is just the player straightening his legs and standing taller. I do not see the player moving forward in any way that would lose LGP (assuming he had it before upward motion).

I saw the step you're talking about, too; in my area we call that a firm-up. I don't think he gives up LGP there. IMO this is a charge, but it's a tight one.

The situation after the foul call was handled with remarkable calmness and aplomb by the crew. Well done.

Um, Boeheim knows the rule, virtually quoted the rule in his post-game press conference, and based on how the rule has been interpreted/implemented this season....he is correct in saying that play has been called a block throughout the season.

You can say he's a whiner (so is Coach K; so is Coach Izzo; so is Coach Cal; etc), but you CAN'T say he is "ignorant" or the rules.

Uh those are both charges all day every day.

I agree. I thought they were both PC.

Yep...both PC's with then 2nd one being the more obvious one of the two in my mind. The first one was close.

Me too...all day every day and 100% of the time.

Coach Boeheim deserved the 2 T's he got, there is no way around that when you run out on the floor acting like a first class jackass such as he did in this case....

No issues at all from me with this call, or this ejection.

Play with the score tied at 41 = obvious PC.
Play with ten seconds left = PC, but close and tough while rotating.

Both charges in my view under the new rule, old rule, whatever.

Both plays, IMO, are PC. Based on the newspaper report, I went to the 4 letter to watch the end of game play. Thoughts on that - 1) I liked the call live, and wouldn't change it based on the replays that I saw. 2) How could Boeheim be doing anything but guessing based on his angle from the bench? He can disagree all he wants as long as .... He doesn't. Bye, bye. And he knew it. 3) I generally like ole Dickie V, but his on-air comments in this case are wrong. Bilas does a commendable job reining his partner in. Dickie V says the call ended the game. Bilas corrects him saying the Boeheim's response to the call actually did that.

The problem with points 2 & 3 are the trickle down effect of coaches and players actions in such situations. In no way does this call prevent the players from deciding the game's outcome.

I watched this game with a room full of duke haters.

I commented after the Parker block/and1 that I thought it was a poor call, clearly a PC. I also educated the room on Ayers' credentials and how much I respected him.

As soon as the last PC was called, while they were all going crazy and proclaiming how biased the calls are always at Cameron indoor, I was watching the replays and how the crew handled the rabies infected coach. I also thought they did a remarkable job handling him, the assistants, and the players. I also thought immediately, and after seeing all the replays, that it was a correct PC call.

Then DickieV started his rant, and of course everybody in the room started with the "let the players decide the game" nonsense, one of my pet peeves. Before bilas even said one word, I was trying to convey the same argument: no matter what the call is, running out onto the court like that will get you ejected just about anywhere and 4 free throws will definitely put you out of the game.

I live in Kentucky, they're all still butt hurt about Christian lakener (sp?) Hitting that one shot :P

I'm surprised at this one. The play at the end looks like an easy block to me under the new rule. I have a charge or maybe a no call in an NFHS game but this game has a different rule.

I like the way you threw the official under the bus!! You cannot educate a fan. They don't want to be educated!! If I were a basketball official I would not want to work with you. If you were as good as you think you are you would have been working instead of watching with a bunch of nim nod fans!

Moving forward does not remove LGP, unless such movement occurs at the time of contact.

Sorry, have to disagree. No way it is a no call.

Bad call or not does not excuse Boheim's childish tantrum.

either way PC on both calls, but the NCAA-M new interp has really caused a stir.

End of game B/C - Block, defender had no established LGP prior to the upward motion of the shooter. The L makes this call in rotation, the T was backing out.

I would suggest that you not come out of your van until you have learned the Guarding and Screen rules.

MTD, Sr.

Who cares about his behavior? No brainer. He wanted to get tossed. He gave the officials no choice.

It gave him a chance to call the assignor first :)

Our job is to penalize such behavior and the let the schools, league, NCAA handle the rest.

You might want to be familiar with the POE

I see LGP before he even holds the ball, let alone starting his upward motion. It's a bit grainy for me, though, to know for sure, so I'll defer to the guy standing 5 feet away.

That said, either way, it's close enough that the coach shouldn't have anything more than a quick question afterwards.

Defender is there. Gathering and upward motion is not clear to me from any angle. Contact does not need to be center torso in any rule set. I stand by my earlier post, PC on both plays no matter old rule or new rule.

I Support My Players, Even When They Do Something Wrong, Yay Ra Ra ...
 

Agree.

Everybody in this Forum will tell you that you do not want to get into a debate with me about Guarding and Screening (Block/Charge). As I said before, continue to study the rules.

MTD, Sr.

Why didn't Boeheim get 1 technical and be given a chance to go back to bench?

I think he got 2 T's on the play. The calling official, I believe, gave T #1 for his initial tirade off the bench on to the court. Then he probably insulted the official's wife's cooking which got T #2.

Either way from T #1 to #2 he got the chance to drop some knowledge on the proper method to prepare Sea Bass.

But the replay shows the official giving 2 fast techs and then tossing him.

First one was for charging the floor which is automatic and the second one was for cussing Tony as if you watch the TV replay they covered his mouth so you could not read his lips. Great calls as he had to leave. charge was the correct call and the ejections were right on! Good job crew!:):):)

Boeheim should be sanctioned not only for the tirade, but for his assinine comment after the game that he had no regret about his actions.

Sets a great example for all youth coaches and young players around the country.

I've seen the play multiple times and haven't decided which way I would adjudicate.

So I have no problem with either call. Ideally I would have liked the Lead to have completed his rotation instead of moving during the action.

This is about as close as they get.

If I'm in the Leads seat, I probably rule block, since that's the way we've been calling these plays all year long.

Ok Thanks so rushing the court with your mouth shut when the ball is not in play is 1 technical foul. Then the act of saying Bull @1*% is another Tech. Crew got everything correct here. Great job to Tony.

My question: based on Roger Ayers earlier block call on what probably should have been a PC, should Tony Green have called a block on the final play?

Certainly two wrongs don't make a right, but in the name of consistency?

Hats off to the basketball ref for tossing the coach. All baseball umpires are proud of you, for doing what we do all season long.

Let that be a lesson for the rest of you hoopsters. Don't allow those guys to yell at you from point blank range.

Do you change how you make a call based on a single call 10 minutes earlier? Personally, I think this would be a horrible way to officiate. I take every game one play at a time and I can't imagine guys at the top of the profession doing anything different.

2 wrongs wouldn't make a right.

(3 rights, however, make a left.)

As a guy who works both baseball and basketball, I think you're missing the big picture. He wasn't run for yelling. He was run for BEING ON THE COURT and continuing to yell/swear/argue while ON THE COURT.

He could've yelled all that stuff all day long from the bench even next to an official (as long as he didn't run up and down the sidelines acting like a madman) and none of the officials would've even blinked (or looked at him) at that point of the game. Coming onto the floor and going apeshit had to be addressed. It was.

That just makes you consistently wrong. It's better to kick a call than to kick all of them in the name of consistency.

Why is that allowed in basketball, and we eject all day for that in baseball?

Different sports, Kyle. Different expectations. Doesn't make basketball wrong and baseball right, either.

Boeheim JUST BEING ON THE FLOOR arguing is a pretty automatic technical foul. Baseball allows managers to come onto the field and argue without ejecting quite a few of them. Is that right?

Yeah, if they request time, don't run at me, and keep it civil.

I just don't like the idea of someone yelling at me, be it on the diamond, hardcourt, or Costco, and not doing something about it.

I can't remember the last time a college baseball coach requested time before coming out and arguing a call I've made.

I could only imagine the reaction of my coordinator if I told him I ejected a coach because he didn't call time before he came out to argue a call. Or that he yelled. Goes with the territory.

All nice but not really always possible. Players move when they chose to and we have to make the call when it occurs.

At the beginning of my season, my conference supervisor and a regional observer watched my game. After the game, they came into the locker room and told the crew:

"To succeed at the higher levels of college basketball, you have to understand the feel and dynamics of the game. Calls and non-calls at one end of the floor deserve the similar calls and non-calls at the other end of the floor when the plays are similar."

When the boss and an observer tell you this, then you do as they say.

What is implied in that statement is the word "correct" calls and "correct" non-calls with "correct" being subjective in some cases. If you totally kick one at one end, that philosophy is not saying you should kick it at the other.

Agree with Adam here. The defender obtained initial LGP before the dribble even ended....well before upward motion. That is what the new rule/POE requires. It makes no restriction on moving to maintain an already established LGP. If the defender continues to move AND remain in the opponents path the entire time, then they are legal. They've already met the requirement for upward motion.

If the opponent jumps in a direction not toward the defender, the defender is no longer in the path and it is too late to obtain a new position in the path.

This logic is flawed, no matter who said it. Two plays can be very similar and still be on opposite sides of a line.

And No Crying Either ...
 

I know more about quantum physics than I do about baseball rules, but: No technical fouls in baseball, just ejections, no other options.

This ESPN article also has some great isolation video of Boeheim's reaction from several different angles.....

Referees made right call at end of Syracuse Orange-Duke Blue Devils game, official says - ESPN

From the article: "The timing of this particular call, with the NCAA tournament right around the corner, will only add to the heightened scrutiny officials are facing."

(Someone can isolate the video - I gotta learn how to do that!)

I'm not a college official so need to understand how this is different from the year before.

According to the article they added, "A defensive player is not permitted to move into the path of an offensive player once he has started his upward motion with the ball to attempt a field goal or pass. If the defensive player is not in legal guarding position by this time, it is a blocking foul."

Based on my limited understanding of what the college guys have been told about it how is this different than what they might have called the year before. Thanks.

From the 2011-12 Rulebook:

From the 2014-15 Rulebook:

When someone has a position to integrate a philosophy throughout the officiating landscape to bring continuity for all regions, I believe it is upon us to work on implementing this way of thinking.

If we as officials are closed minded to a different way of thinking, there can never be a continuity in officiating across the country; which perpetuates the stereotype that the ACC, Big 12, Big 10, Pac 12, SEC officiate differently. This is something that John Adams is trying his best to eliminate.

In prior years the defender had until the offensive player became airborne (both feet having left the floor) to obtain a legal guarding position. The new rule shifts that point to when the offensive player begins his upward movement with his hands and arms. So in NCAA men's games defenders need to get there earlier this year.

ftfy

Is this a rule in a league, local area, association or state you ump at? Or is this how you apply it individually? I understand about keeping it civil but I'm not aware of any protocall where a manager must request time before entering the field to contest a call.

To properly implement the philosophy requires understanding the philosophy in the first place. It is not about being closed minded. It is simply about understanding what that philosophy really means. It has nothing to do with deliberately calling a foul wrong because one a few minutes before was called incorrectly.

And even if it isn't about one being wrong vs. right, there has to be a line somewhere and at some point, one play will have gone just a little bit too far.

I was watching the game and right away I had a PC, it was the right call. It was a tough pill for Syracruse to swallow. And I thought the way the official handled Boeheim, who completely embarrassed himself, was outstanding!! I understand that official has worked several ncaa regional finals and final fours, is that true?. Kudoes to him!!

His post was just as right as yours. Or do you hate pronouns, too.

WTF are you talking about? When have you seen a coach yell at me?

I know I sure as hell never let a coach come on to the playing surface to debate a call. ;)

Exactly. I've been known to remind a coach he doesn't get to yell.

Like Rich said, though, different sports have different standards.

Well, guess what, that's not something we do not allow coaches to do in basketball, so why do you allow it in baseball?

The dynamics are different. In basketball and football, there is an official that's going to be right in the coach's lap affording them the opportunity to briefly discuss the situation.

In baseball, the distance is too great to carry on this type of conversation so they come out. We don't allow them to yell from the dugout and we don't allow them to yell and scream while they are on the field.

Smile everyone, you're being watched. This thread seems fairly popular on other forums.

You just said a lot but none of it does anything to dispute, or even to address what I said. The importance of consistency cannot be overstated. But to say that similar plays should result in similar calls is much too broad a statement to be useful, in my opinion.

Mark, what guarding rule did 7ironRef get wrong?

Anyone that knows much about college basketball knows that many of the officials work 2, 3, or even 4 of those conferences (less so with the PAC due to location). So the notion that the operate independent from one another is a fallacy.

They operate independant of each other if they have different supervisors. These guys have to adjust to that night's supervisor.

My fingers are starting to itch just typing this defense...but Dickie V this morning on Mike and Mike blasted Boeheim. He said that simply cannot happen and that the game was not decided by the call...but was decided by the two Ts he received. Several people on the show afterwards were very critical of Boeheim and pointed out that he gave the official no choice by running onto the floor.

One even pointed out that if he would have simply stayed on his side of the sideline that he probably would have only gotten one T.

Says the 7th grade algebra student discussing calculus with Hawking. Says Daniel-San on the first day of lessons to Miyaga.

You're out of your league and insulting the wrong guy here, sir.

So V is pretty much just saying what Bilas told him at the time when Dickie was going down the 'blame the officials' road.

It's ok if I do it
 

Wonder what Coach JB's press conference would have been like if the player involved (CJ Fair) had reacted to that call in the manner in which the coach did. I'll bet JB wouldn't have tried to be such a comedian..probably having to answer questions about suspension and further discipline. For him it just seems to be a funny thing and we should all get a chuckle about it. Like someone else said...not a great example of leadership when the game is on the line.

I'm late to the party here, but I thought both calls clearly should have been PC.

Boeheim's explanation of the rule in the press conference was simply wrong. He starts out being right, but then adds in, incorrectly, that the defender can't move. He can. AFTER he achieves LGP, he can move as long as he doesn't lose LGP while doing so. The slight movement the defender does here after achieving LGP is not even close to enough to lose it... and LGP was established significantly before the upward motion began.

Exactly! I know for a fact that in some conferences the coaches rating has a HUGE affect on your pay tier and amount of games received. In other conferences, the coach's rating is thought of as used toilet paper.

IOW, if an official feels supported by his supervisor, he will go out on the court knowing he doesn't have to kow-tow to any coach. If the coaches have an influence, then the inner politics of pacifying coaches to save one's rating comes into the fold. This is usually done by officials unwilling to change their philosophy in order to save their pay scale.

Yes, they do, but there is still going to be a mixing and averaging effect of how they are called, even if there are some differences.

What differences there may be are not because of the officials not having an open mind and being isolated in any given conference...which is what the post above was trying to claim.

They were both offensive fouls and unfortunately, we don't want to try and match "misses" that we have as stripes. . .

Greene's call just looked kinda off because he was on the move and didn't get fully done rotating yet, but the defender was legal and in the path. . .

And if was up to Vitale, Dakich, or all these other stuttering nincompoop analysts - there would be no foul-outs, no points of emphasis or concerns, and coaches could say or do whatever they want because its what's good for television and what they feel is for the game. . .

Just my barely $.02 cents worth.

Tony Greene discusses ejecting Jim Boeheim, more Hoop Thoughts - College Basketball - Seth Davis - SI.com

Excerpt:

Suffice to say, the vibe at that moment was far different than it was a couple hours before, when Greene and Boeheim, who have known each other for many years, were yukking it up as they walked onto the court. So what happens when the two of them meet again? "We'll be fine," Greene promised. "I'm a professional. He's a professional. There are no grudges. It's just one of those things where the beat goes on. It's all a part of the job."

I can't believe it but the ACC is not going to take any disciplinary action against Jim Boeheim. What is wrong with this picture?

MTD, Sr.

People get suspended for being a$$-hats? He got ejected. He didn't contact any officials. I wasn't expecting a suspension.

Agreed. He got ejected, and he left. Now, was anything said post-game that may have earned an additional fine?

Yes, he was penalized for via the TF route for his conduct during the game. BUT!! I don't know but maybe I am old school. His conduct when beyond the boundaries of even venting his displeasure with the call.

MTD, Sr.

Mark, what guarding rule did 7ironRef get wrong?