No One Saw The Ball Go In
 

Lob pass from 3 point area. Pass is up near the rim. Net moves. Kid for the defense grabs it and then takes it out for a throw-in. That team then goes down and scores a quick bucket.

The team that threw the lob is yelling for 3 points. Clock guy puts up 3. No official gives any signal that the ball went in.

After the the "quick bucket" the coach of the team that was on D when the lob was thrown says "why did no one give a 3 signal?"

Officials get together and determine that none of them saw it go in. They ask the official scorekeeper and she says she thinks it went in. So they keep the 3 up there.


Let's say she said she didn't see it go in. Now you have the 3 officials and the official scorekeeper (and the clock guy) say they didn't see it go in.

Correctable error. Caught it in time, correct?

So you erase the 3 but keep the 2 for the other team and now it's possession to the team that had the 3 incorrectly awarded, correct?

If no one saw it go in AND the scorekeeper isn't sure then it should not be 3 points. this begs the question that when the kid took the ball for an inbounds as if the basket was made why didn't any of the officials whistle a violation here

That phrase doesn't mean what you think it means. Look it up and learn something today.

This case has some relevant information.

2.10.1 SITUATION L:

A1 jumps and releases a try for goal apparently from behind the three-point line. The try is successful. The covering official does not indicate a three-point try and does not signal three points after the goal. The Team A coach rushes to the table and requests a 60-second time-out to discuss a correctable error. It is determined neither official clearly observed A1’s location before he/she jumped to try.

RULING: No change can be made and two points are properly scored. The 60-second time-out remains charged to Team A. (5-8-4)


Based upon the language of the case play, I'd say that if it's known with certainty that the thrower was behind the three point line then three points can be awarded.

This is a correctable error and it was caught in time however there isn't a lot of concrete information to go on. None of the officials observed the ball go in and the scorer only "thinks" it went in. That's probably enough to go on in awarding the score since it seems the teams also reacted as if it went in but it still seems a little dicey to me.

If nobody from the table saw it either, we're on some shaky ground at that point. I'm not sure we can award points for something none of the officials saw.

Nevada makes a pedantic point with accuracy. But laying aside his point, it does raise in my mind the question of why nobody called traveling or out of bounds when a defensive player grabbed the ball out of the air and walked out of bounds with it.

Not a CE, but it's an error that is correctible up until the officials leave the court after the game is over. Once that happens, it's too late. In this case, you would resume from POI once the error is recognized.

This would be a scorer's error since they were counting points without input from the officials.

Lead had a battle in his lap. The two outside , for whatever reason, didn't see the ball go in. The kid who grabbed the ball thought it did so he took it out. All of the officials assumed the ball went in and the other two saw it. So no travel call.

Actually, this could be either a correctable error or a bookkeeping mistake.

If the try or thrown ball was from beyond the arc and the officials have knowledge of that fact, then one of them should have signaled for 3pts when the ball went in. The complication is the fact that none of the officials observed the ball enter the basket. The failure of an official to properly signal and award three points would be a CE and it is still within the proper timeframe to handle.

If none of the officials observed from where the ball was thrown, then the proper amount of points to award is only two and this means that the scorer has made an error by awarding the extra point on his own without the proper signal from the game officials. This is a bookkeeping error and can be corrected at any point under the jurisdiction of the officials ends.

If two of the officials were certain the ball was thrown from behind the arc but none actually saw the ball go in, I've got a bookkeeping error if it's determined later that the ball did not go in.

The officials permitting the throw-in without any signal or whistle is what they normally do following a successful 2pt goal. That seems to be the officials improperly awarding a score to me.

If it is later determined that the ball did not go in, then I would use the CE timeframe for correcting it and removing the points. If this has passed, then the 2pts must stand.

In that scenario, the only part which could be ruled a bookkeeping mistake is the scorer crediting 3pts instead of two. That could and should be changed at any future point in the game.

As The Lead, Keep Your Eyes On the Rebounders ...
 

Twice, in my career, I've had something odd like this happen to me, both times when I was in the lead position, keeping my eyes down, observing the rebounders, like I'm supposed to. Luckily, both times, my partner, the trail, helped me out.

First time, as the lead, I see, with my peripheral vision, the net wiggle, and then the ball goes out of bounds on the endline. I assumed that the ball went in. A player from the nonshooting team picks up the ball and looks oddly at me, and I motion him to just make his throwin, which he does. My partner, the old trail, sounds his whistle to tell me that that ball didn't go in the basket, it just whipped the bottom of the net on its way out of bounds.

Second time, again as the lead, a long distance shot just goes out of bounds on my endline, and I sound my whistle and make the out of bounds call. My partner now comes to me and asks me why I sounded my whistle on a made basket. He said that the net was so loose that it didn't move a bit as the ball just shot right through it.

My Worst Play Of The Season ...
 

This happened last week. I got distracted, didn't do what I was supposed to do, and, thus, I was a bad partner.

I'm the trail, and the ball handler comes from my primary and gets hammered, in the act of shooting, and falls down, near the free throw line. I sound my whistle for the foul, and then hear, a split second later, faintly, my partner's whistle from the lead. Around here, we usually let the lead take double "fist" whistles, but because my whistle was noticeably earlier, and louder, than his, I figure that he's going to give me the call, but he doesn't, and comes out strong with his preliminary signals, so I go into my noncalling mode and identify the shooter, who is in a pile of players, on the floor, at the free throw line.

As he moves toward the reporting area he stops, and asks me, while I'm still at my trail position, "Who was the foul on, and did the ball go in?". Since I was in my noncalling mode, all I could tell him was, "34 is the shooter". Because I was distracted by the double whistle, my surprise that he took the call, and with a pile of players, possibly injured, on the floor, I had failed to not only remember who the fouler was, I had also forgotten about my responsibility, as the trail, to observe if the ball went in, or didn't go in.

All I could tell him was that maybe the table could help in out with both questions, and luckily, they were able to answer both questions for him (the ball went in).

I gave up trying to remember both the fouler, and the foulee, many years ago after screwing up by switching the numbers around many times in the early part of many career (my brain just can't do it, seriously). So I'm not really upset with myself about that part. I'm really upset at myself that I failed, as the trail to see if the ball went in, or didn't go in. That's my job, and I failed miserably at it. I was not good partner in that game.

Hold on. This was a lob pass, not a try. It doesn't matter where it came from. It should be 2 or 0 not 3 or 0.

Before chastising others with sophomoric commentary that has nothing to do with what we discuss here, a quick fact check yourself would be advised. The phrase referenced has several meanings, one of which is exactly as used by deecee.

As to the situation at hand, I do not see this as a CE. Based on the information from the table (and reactions of the players) it seems that a goal has been scored but there is no knowledge of from where. In this case only 2 points should be awarded, which should be clarified by the R asap but could happen anytime before the game ends since it is a scoring error. All other action still stands so I woud not erase the other teams basket nor cancel any fouls etc. that may have occured.

Confused In Connecticut ...
 

Didn't that rule change about fifteen years ago?

See casebook 5.2.1 b

It doesn't matter if it was a shot or a pass, a ball "thrown" from behind a teams own 3-point arc thst enters their own goal is worth 3 points. On a side note, if this occured at the wrong basket, even if a player purposefully (assume accidentally) shot at the wrong goal it can only be counted as 2 points.

By the book you are correct. However in every day usage this is how it is used. It may be wrong "by the strict definition" but hey I don't think there's a hair out there you don't like to split.

I disagree, from the way I read the OP. They knew it was thrown from behind the arc, they just didn't see it go in. The lead simply assumed it went in by the players' reactions (I've done that on a free throw once).

How can 1 determine a players correct form of a shot or pass?

Adam -

If they had definite knowledge of where the ball originated then I have no problem with your post. But if they do not (no one indicated the three was good so I was not thinking they didn't although they could come to that conclusion in discussion) then I think they have to go with only two.

Onetime & Mechanicsman -

It doesn't matter either way. If the ball went in THEIR basket from behind THEIR arc it is a three regardless if it was a beautiful shot, ugly shot, pass, or otherwise. Nothing in the case play or rule book indicates it had to be a try, only that it has to meet the criteria above.

Just like they do when a player is fouled but unable to release the ball (or the ball gets knocked away). Shooting or passing? You must use judgement based on what it looks like and what they were likely trying to do.

Exactly.

Although it still doesn't matter in the OP (just clarifying, I know you aren't saying differently).

It seems to me, and Spence, maybe you can confirm or deny the meaning in the OP, but the issue is not whether it went in or not (even though no one actually saw it go in.). The issue is whether it went in on the pass, or was tipped in on the lob attempt. From the reaction of all the players, I think its reasonable to assume the ball entered the hoop in some fasion. But was it tipped in by the offensive player going up for the lob pass?

Rich, it's a good thing that your officiating skills are superior to your grammar. Since you decided to come into this with an attitude, why don't you join young deecee in taking a look at this link (and several others which can be easily found with an Internet search) and learn something yourself today: Grammar Girl : Begs the Question :: Quick and Dirty Tips ?

Furthermore, my comment in response to deecee was meant to contain humor as well as to possibly help him learn a language fact. Clearly, you missed the reference to The Princess Bride.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk

Yikes! Your reasoning is that because many people commonly use this phrase incorrectly it is acceptable to do so yourself? Talk about aiming low.
Perhaps officials shouldn't call traveling or backcourt violations correctly because so many coaches, players, and fans have a misunderstanding of these rules. Let's just acquiesce and call it how they think it should be. :rolleyes:

Here's another phrase for you "not suffer fools gladly."

If you only knew how absurd I feel having chosen to consult sources such as the Cambridge Idioms Dictionary and Cambridge Dictionary of American Idioms. How silly of me to trust the expertise of one of the top 5 universities in the world over the musings of someone called grammer girl. Tsk, tsk.

And yes, I did miss the Princess Bride reference. Have seen the movie (it was funny from what I remember).

Now, can't we all just get along and get back to basketball.