camp question

[Junker]

I went to my first camp (high school teams) a few weeks ago and had a great time. I learned alot and recieved good feedback on my performance. I did have one "yes, but" moment with my evaluators. He told us that we should know how many fouls the best players on the team have so we can make sure they "earn" their last foul. I understood where he was coming from as far as making the game go on without everyone in the gym raking you over the coals, but I've had other officals tell me not to look at player fouls in the scorebook (unless there's a problem with the scorers table). As I said, I understood where he was coming from, and after reading about "camp manners" on the forum I kept my mouth shut and nodded, but what does everyone else think about this? Thanks.

[Mlancaster]

That's a sticky point. I do not agree that an official has any duty to know that Team A's stud has 4 fouls, but I do agree that a seasoned official is able to keep up with these things mentally as the game progresses. This is where Game Management comes into play, and can't be "taught" at the camp level.
If you start worrying about how many fouls #3 has, this WILL detract from your concentration level.....However, as an official gains experience, these things tend to become more natural.

[JRutledge]

I do not believe this clinician was telling you to actually look in the book, he is telling you to be aware of that situation. The way that happens is with experience and working a lot of games. When you start looking to do varsity games, it is to your benefit to know who the "stars" or "key players" are. Because what they do or what happens to them will affect what the coaches say and how they act towards you. Usually you will be very aware of who those players are, just by what they are trying to do on the court or who gets the ball as well. But at the earlier stages of your career this can be difficult to do. So unless you have a lot of experience and are doing varsity games all the time, this is not going to be much of your concern. But it is something you can work on as you move up the latter.

Peace

[Andy]

You are going to hear from both sides on this topic. Some people share the same opinion of your clinician. Identify the "star" players and if they get close to fouling out, or get a few fouls early , make sure that any fouls you call on them are "earned".

As far as I'm concerned, HS is not the NBA!

Officials should strive for consistancy. Contact that warrants a players first foul, warrants the same players fifth foul. This applies whether the player is the star or the last player off the bench.

The common wisdom spouted for the clinicians point of view is "you don't want to affect the game by fouling out the star unless it's a "solid" foul".

I say that if team B knows that star A has four fouls, they may try to run plays at him to try to get that fifth foul. If you are passing on contact by star A that you called earlier in the game, aren't you affecting the game by denying team B the chance to do what they are attempting?

Bottom line - work to become consistant, call the game.


PS - Good job with the "camp manners"!

[CYO Butch]

Originally posted by Andy
You are going to hear from both sides on this topic. Some people share the same opinion of your clinician. Identify the "star" players and if they get close to fouling out, or get a few fouls early , make sure that any fouls you call on them are "earned".

As far as I'm concerned, HS is not the NBA!

Officials should strive for consistancy. Contact that warrants a players first foul, warrants the same players fifth foul. This applies whether the player is the star or the last player off the bench.

The common wisdom spouted for the clinicians point of view is "you don't want to affect the game by fouling out the star unless it's a "solid" foul".

I say that if team B knows that star A has four fouls, they may try to run plays at him to try to get that fifth foul. If you are passing on contact by star A that you called earlier in the game, aren't you affecting the game by denying team B the chance to do what they are attempting?

Bottom line - work to become consistant, call the game.


PS - Good job with the "camp manners"!

Junker, The advice given was for your protection, but what a load of cr*p to have it actually be policy at the HS level. Treating the star players differently than the others is exactly what a good official (imo) should NOT do. As Andy said, be consistent for all players throughout the game. Anything less than that is going to introduce bias into the game and has you, not the players, determining the outcome. If you are calling touch fouls throughout the game, then at the end, only the ones that are "earned", somebody got the shaft. You may get screamed at for calling the last foul on the stud, but the screams will be even louder if your "no-calls" at the end of the game had been called against the other team's players earlier. The last thing we need is to have our basketball officials cater to the superstars. Maybe in the NBA, which is there for the spectators, the rules don't have to apply equally to everyone. But what kind of lesson are we teaching our kids if HS basketball officials say it is ok for a star to get away with something that others can't?

All of your work, all your clinics, all your reading, and all your other efforts to improve yourself as an official, help you to become consistent. Why introduce something to mess that up? Please, don't do it.

[devdog69]

Originally posted by Junker
I went to my first camp (high school teams) a few weeks ago and had a great time. I learned alot and recieved good feedback on my performance. I did have one "yes, but" moment with my evaluators. He told us that we should know how many fouls the best players on the team have so we can make sure they "earn" their last foul. I understood where he was coming from as far as making the game go on without everyone in the gym raking you over the coals, but I've had other officals tell me not to look at player fouls in the scorebook (unless there's a problem with the scorers table). As I said, I understood where he was coming from, and after reading about "camp manners" on the forum I kept my mouth shut and nodded, but what does everyone else think about this? Thanks.

First of all Junker, great question for debate on an otherwise BORING board this time of year. The answer, IMHO, depends on where you want to go with your officiating. If you want to 'go to the next level', you better learn to incorporate some of this into your game. Do I pass on a foul because the star has three already? Heck, no. But, if I happen to be working with a weak partner who has reached or quick-whistled and given a post player from one team a couple of undeserved early fouls, you can bet your sweet petunia's that I am aware of it and will have an extremely patient whistle. Game management, time and distance, competitive matchups, all have impact on any of these so-called decisions that you make during the game. Game management, including clock management, communication, hard work, and common sense will move you up and this is part of it.

[Junker]

Thanks for the replies! Everyone makes good points to think about. I agree that it's kind of a game management type skill to consider. I would not look at the score book and I don't really think that's what the clinician was telling us. I guess the best way to stay out of trouble is call things consistantly and be sure about your calls. One of my personal points of emphasis going into camp and going into next season is to concentrate on being sure of what I call and laying off some of the ticky tack stuff. As a newer official I find myself blowing the whistle and then second guessing myself immediately. If I'm second guessing myself, coaches and Joe Blow parent are going to be on their third or fourth guess. Anyway, all camp did was get me excited about next season already. From some of the comments I heard I think I might get a few varsity games next season and after working varsity in the camp I can't wait! The better the players, the more fun it is to call.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Andy
You are going to hear from both sides on this topic. Some people share the same opinion of your clinician. Identify the "star" players and if they get close to fouling out, or get a few fouls early , make sure that any fouls you call on them are "earned".

As far as I'm concerned, HS is not the NBA!

Officials should strive for consistancy. Contact that warrants a players first foul, warrants the same players fifth foul. This applies whether the player is the star or the last player off the bench.

The common wisdom spouted for the clinicians point of view is "you don't want to affect the game by fouling out the star unless it's a "solid" foul".

I say that if team B knows that star A has four fouls, they may try to run plays at him to try to get that fifth foul. If you are passing on contact by star A that you called earlier in the game, aren't you affecting the game by denying team B the chance to do what they are attempting?

Bottom line - work to become consistant, call the game.


PS - Good job with the "camp manners"!

I really do not understand why everyone takes a comment and runs with it. This advice has nothing to do with the NBA, at least that I am aware of. What this is about, is to concentrate and stay focused on where the ball is going and who is going to get the attention from the opponent. If you think a star player is not going to get more attention from the opponent, you are sadly mistaken. This is just to make you aware of who is going to get pushed, kicked (I am being very facetious here) or whatever the opponent is going to throw at that person to stop them. If I know that a team is a "one man team," it is much easier to know who to watch or make sure that the opponents do not do cheap things to them. It is also good to know if they are "getting away" with stuff, to protect yourself. If that kid fouls out, you think the coach might go a little more balistic? So when you give that 4th and 5th foul, you can be sure it was a good foul. One, those are the fouls they will really scrutinize on tape. Two, you will realize when the coach will go "ape $h!t" rather than it coming as a complete surprise. You do not change anything, you just make sure your behind is covered rather than having a bomb blow up in your face and you not realize the timer was on.

But this is just one person's opinion. But the higher you go up or the better the game at the high school level, you need to be prepared for all the obsticals that will be thrown at you. This is just one way to overcome them.

Peace

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Junker
I guess the best way to stay out of trouble is call things consistantly and be sure about your calls. One of my personal points of emphasis going into camp and going into next season is to concentrate on being sure of what I call and laying off some of the ticky tack stuff.

I think the ultimate goal is to be able to see the game over-all and work toward a smooth fit between the players and you. You call things a little tight in the beginning, and hope the players back off a little. If they don't, you keep calling, and that's consistency. If they do back off, you can bet that near the end when the heat's on, you may have to crack down just a little to let them know you're paying attention. But all of this is talking about the 2% and 3% differences. That's the trick to learn when you're new. You're learning it even earlier than most, I suspect. From what I can gather, people tend to start off not calling enough, then the pendulum swings back to calling way too much, and then they back off a little too much, and sort of lurch back and forth until they learn how to adjust at the beginning of a game and then fit in. The issue isn't the solid fouls, it's the sort of borderline stuff, which may or may not be worth calling, depending on the game at hand. I'm not there myself, yet, but I can see it just ahead. What I learned first were the sentences, "Coach, I had to call that, it affected the shot." "Coach, I haven't called that all game, because he hasn't done that all game." "Coach, it's hard for us to be consistent when the game is so ratty." "Don't worry, coach, I'll get the ones that are necessary." Even if you don't need them to say to the coach, you say them to yourself. If they are true, you're doing something right. If they are rationalizations, you have a hint of what you need to work on next time.

[Dan_ref]

Things you should know at any point in the game:

- score of the game
- time left in the game
- time left on shot clock
- direction of alternating possession arrow
- number of timeouts each team has left
- number of team fouls each team has
- number of fouls on each starter
- if a coach has been warned
- where to go if you're hungy/thirsty after the game

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
Things you should know at any point in the game:

- score of the game
- time left in the game
- time left on shot clock
- direction of alternating possession arrow
- number of timeouts each team has left
- number of team fouls each team has
- number of fouls on each starter
- if a coach has been warned
- where to go if you're hungy/thirsty after the game

Dan, am I correct in assuming that the list is in inverse order of importance?