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-   -   C'mon, he had only had 26... (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/97280-cmon-he-had-only-had-26-a.html)

referee99 Sat Feb 15, 2014 02:37am

C'mon, he had only had 26...
 
...open heart surgeries.

2 mins left in the game tonight, AD comes over and says they are putting the team manager in the game. He's not in the book, but other coach agrees. I had seen this energetic upstart a couple of times previously this season. Working hard as team manager.

In he comes with 2 mins to go, and the kids in the gym take over. The cell phones are out and the vibe is fantastic. #14 is a good team player, running the offense, moving the ball. His teammates keep getting him the ball and his first try is a 3. No good.

His team controls the rebounds. feeds him but a second try no good. We go the other way. Other team misses and back we come... yeah, third time is the charm: nothing but net. Gym is electric!

Team bench is off the hook. Student section off the hook. Final seconds counting down I am strategizing getting off the court, knowing there will be a storming of the court. Indeed!

A good day at the office.

O'Dowd Team Manager

Nevadaref Sat Feb 15, 2014 06:07am

When did you administer the two free throws?

Rich Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:43am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 922972)
When did you administer the two free throws?

Only in your imagination.

referee99 Sat Feb 15, 2014 12:01pm

I specifically told her!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 922972)
When did you administer the two free throws?

Pre-game with official scorer to notify us if there was any problem with the book. Never got notified! Oh well. :)

deecee Sat Feb 15, 2014 04:19pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 922972)
When did you administer the two free throws?

At the varsity level I completely agree. Other levels heck no.

Rich Sat Feb 15, 2014 04:47pm

Blowout and they want to bring a manager in (in obviously a special situation)?

Sure, it's not good planning by the "violating" team, but I doubt I'm going to delay the game, assess a technical foul, shoot the free throws, etc. etc.

Good on the scorer for not notifying you. Took it right out of your hands. :D

Adam Sat Feb 15, 2014 05:01pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 922972)
When did you administer the two free throws?

Right about the time I'm dead inside.

Nevadaref Sat Feb 15, 2014 05:08pm

So why wouldn't a team which has a special situation and knows that they possibly wish to play a certain kid simply list him at the bottom of the roster for the final home game?
Simple planning by the coaching staff prevents putting the officials in an awkward spot.

Rich Sat Feb 15, 2014 05:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 923028)
So why wouldn't a team which has a special situation and knows that they possibly wish to play a certain kid simply list him at the bottom of the roster for the final home game?
Simple planning by the coaching staff prevents putting the officials in an awkward spot.

I don't disagree completely. I would've preferred better planning.

But it's really not that awkward, not to me.

Nevadaref Sat Feb 15, 2014 05:29pm

I didn't know that the coaches had the ability to waive playing rules.

The officials are supposed to be objective administrators of the game.
We can't ignore or set aside rules because people want us to.

stick Sat Feb 15, 2014 05:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 923028)
So why wouldn't a team which has a special situation and knows that they possibly wish to play a certain kid simply list him at the bottom of the roster for the final home game?
Simple planning by the coaching staff prevents putting the officials in an awkward spot.

This happend to me about 3 years ago. Last home game and last game of the season for team A. They had two seniors who were injured and couldn't play. Before the game the coach told us they were going to be in the starting lineup. The script was A1 would jump. He would tip the ball to A2 (injured). A2would pass it to A3 (injured) for a lay up--team B agreed to this and would not play defense. Basket for A3 with an assist for A2. Then the horn would go off and two subs would come in for A2 and A3. Team B agreed and was down 2-0 before the real game began. Everyone knew the script and was cool with it. .

BillyMac Sat Feb 15, 2014 06:14pm

Geno Being Geno ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by stick (Post 923034)
Everyone knew the script and was cool with it. .

Nykesha Sales left college as UConn’s all-time leading scorer with 2,178 career points. She scored the record-breaking points as part of a staged controversial layup. Sales had suffered an injury that had essentially ended her collegiate career. UConn's next game (against Villanova University) began with Villanova permitting Sales to complete an uncontested layup. (UConn then returned the favor, allowing Villanova to score. The game essentially began with a 2-2 score before serious play commenced.) UConn head coach Geno Auriemma felt bad that Sales did not already have the record, as he had made her sit on many occasions to avoid running up the score. The staged basket, while questioned in retrospect, was his attempt to make it up to her. He contacted the previous record holder, Kerry Bascom, as well as the Big East Commissioner to ensure that the incident would not be a problem, although the media was, and to a degree continues to be, critical of the move. (Wikipedia)

Nevadaref Sat Feb 15, 2014 07:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by stick (Post 923034)
This happend to me about 3 years ago. Last home game and last game of the season for team A. They had two seniors who were injured and couldn't play. Before the game the coach told us they were going to be in the starting lineup. The script was A1 would jump. He would tip the ball to A2 (injured). A2would pass it to A3 (injured) for a lay up--team B agreed to this and would not play defense. Basket for A3 with an assist for A2. Then the horn would go off and two subs would come in for A2 and A3. Team B agreed and was down 2-0 before the real game began. Everyone knew the script and was cool with it. .

As long as A2 and A3 were in the book, this isn't a problem per the rules.
As officials we don't control the actions of the players on the court. We just administer the game per the rules.
So with that said, what was the horn for? There is no rule permitting such a stoppage of play. If the team wants to do this, then it needs to use a 30-second TO or have one of the kids who is leaving commit a foul.
I don't have an issue with teams doing special things for players as long as it is done within the rules, which it easily can be.

Edit: I guess that the team could also have one of the injured players take a knee or sit down on the court following the basket. That would warrant an injury stoppage.

deecee Sat Feb 15, 2014 08:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 923045)
Edit: I guess that the team could also have one of the injured players take a knee or sit down on the court following the basket. That would warrant an injury stoppage.

Is hell freezing over? :D

asdf Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 923032)
I didn't know that the coaches had the ability to waive playing rules.

The officials are supposed to be objective administrators of the game.
We can't ignore or set aside rules because people want us to.

So, you gonna send him to the bench because this young man has wristbands that don't match his teammates?

Good grief...... why make yourself the story here?

Nevadaref Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:41pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by asdf (Post 923058)
So, you gonna send him to the bench because this young man has wristbands that don't match his teammates?

Good grief...... why make yourself the story here?

Would simply have him remove them.

Why do some people think that it is so difficult to comply with the rules?

BillyMac Sun Feb 16, 2014 07:19am

Mixed Feelings ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 923059)
Why do some people think that it is so difficult to comply with the rules?

Call me heartless, but I would have a tough time not penalizing the adding of the manager's name to the book. Maybe I would let it side, but like I said, I would have some inner turmoil about whether, or not, to do it. And I would not criticize anyone for letting it slide in their game.

Note that the original post says nothing about the score. Even with the opposing coach agreeing, I'm probably not letting it slide in a close game.

If I do charge the technical, I'm getting the free throws out of the way as quickly, and quietly, as possible.

If a technical foul is charged, it's not the kid's fault, it's not the official's fault, its the coach's, or athletic director's, fault.

OK, you guys can start booing, and throwing rotten tomatoes at me now.

JetMetFan Sun Feb 16, 2014 09:17am

I can see Bill's quandry and it isn't really a matter of making ourselves the story. To paraphrase Nevada the rules are there. If we're told beforehand what's going to happen and both teams agree we can easily tell both coaches what needs to happen - by rule - so everything will take place smoothly.

Yesterday in my NCAAW game a player for the home team scored her 1,000th career point and her team wanted it acknowledged at the moment it happened. The crew and the opponent were both notified it was coming - whenever she scored her first two points - and the home HC was told what he needed to do: call a 30-second time-out if the clock was still running.

She scored, the home HC actually forgot to call the 30, play continued, a dead ball took place on an OOB, the PA announcer gave the crowd the information...then the home HC called the 30. Simple and everyone was happy.

BillyMac Sun Feb 16, 2014 10:20am

The Return Of The Set Shot ...
 
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/z0PwfNvIQHI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Adam Sun Feb 16, 2014 10:56am

I've got no problem calling this T 99% of the time, I've done it probably a dozen times. But the rule is there for a reason that does not involve the OP, and I've got no problem making an exception in that extremely rare circumstance. If I take a hit later for skipping the T in this circumstance, I can live with that.

If I end up the biggest ass hole in town and take a hit from my association for that, then that's going to be harder to overcome.

The 6 people who matter know it's an exception and wouldn't expect it to be a precedent. If I call the T, everyone in town knows I'm "that guy." I may as well call the multiple foul. Really, it's no different than giving that same kid a little leeway with his pivot foot as he gathers for the 3 point shot you know he's going to take.

I'm not generally an advocate of allowing the other team to skip the FTs on this T, but hey, if you must call the T: just add a team foul and skip the FTs (assuming the opposing coach is on board with the whole thing).

For me, I'm going to enjoy my once-in-a-career moment without being the biggest jerk this side of the continental divide.

referee99 Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:38pm

I would have no problem with a T.
 
But the way it went down was kind of unique.

Time out with 2:30 to go. Site administrator calls me over and says, "coach has a team manager who we are going to put in the game. He's not in the book, but the other coach has agreed."

So we didn't get a chance to help in the choreography of how to do it properly. Now at this point I don't know if #14 is in the book or not. I just have information that it is possible/likely. Not that it matters, but White was ahead by 30 points.

Also unique here is the table at this tiny gym is in a loft, so our access to the table is not as straightforward.

The scorekeeper did not have the horn sounded. I did not pursue the possibility of an Administrative Technical. Had I been notified, we certainly could have taken care of business, then had 2:00 of game action for things to play out.

My assessment was we would proceed with the game until informed otherwise.

BillyMac Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:49pm

Lots Of Ways Around This ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by referee99 (Post 923098)
... we would proceed with the game until informed otherwise.

Remember, the technical foul is charged, not for an undocumented team member participating, but for a change in the official scorebook. No change in the book noted. No technical charged. Easy peasey lemon squeezy.

referee99 Mon Feb 17, 2014 01:37pm

Story on the game
 
O'Dowd Team Manager

Nevadaref Mon Feb 17, 2014 02:00pm

Excellent article. Wonderful moment for the kid.
O'Dowd is ranked #1 in Northern California as the article states.
They were up by 30 at that point in the game.
Therefore, what is the issue with following the rule and assessing the team technical foul? It isn't going to alter the outcome. If the outcome were in doubt, he would not have played according to everything written in the article.
Of course, not charging the T also isn't going to alter the outcome.
However, as an official in a situation where it doesn't make any difference either way, when making the choice to follow the rule or ignore it, it seems that adhering to the rule should be the obvious default.

BillyMac Mon Feb 17, 2014 04:14pm

Err ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 923292)
When making the choice to follow the rule or ignore it, it seems that adhering to the rule should be the obvious default.

Especially in terms of explaining situations, and how you handled them, to your assigner.

My Catholic middle school assigner assigns Connecticut games from the beach in Florida. He has always told us that he wants all "Fashion Police" rules followed, even for the littlest kids. A few weeks ago, two our officials decided to allow gold undershirts under white jerseys. No a big deal? Right? It's just a "Fashion Police" issue? Right? How's he going to find out? Right?

Well, he did find out, and guess who's not going to work any league, or state, playoff games?

Maybe the original post doesn't compare, or apply, to fashion issues, but Nevadaref makes a lot of sense, in general terms. If you're going to err, err on the side of following the book.

BatteryPowered Mon Feb 17, 2014 04:44pm

Maybe it is because I have no desire (and absolutely no chance) of ever working more than a HS playoff game in the first two rounds. At my age, they are probably not going to give me a first time regional or state assignment...and I am good with that.

In the situation put forward by the OP, there is no way in he[[ I am calling a T. If one of my partners call it I will block them as soon as I can get to a computer. If the person giving me games doesn't want to put me in varsity games in the future then I will either work JV or quit.

There are some things more important than basketball and the rules that govern the game. Would I like the head coach to plan a little better and put the kid in the book for that game...of course. Am I going to make myself look like a jerk and become a villian when the article appears in the paper and they go on and on about the official who penalized the team for trying to do something good...Nope.


But that is just me...I am certain that some (maybe many) here will view me as close to the worse official to ever grab a whistle.

BillyMac Mon Feb 17, 2014 05:25pm

Goldfinger, Now There's A Villain ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BatteryPowered (Post 923332)
A villain ...

Just how bad of a villain are you? The home team would have won. The manager still would have gotten to play. The manger still would have scored. Everybody in the gymnasium still would have cheered for him. In my opinion that "bad" certainly doesn't come anywhere close to any of the Bond villains that I've come to know, and hate, over the past forty years.

asdf Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 923059)
Would simply have him remove them.

Why do some people think that it is so difficult to comply with the rules?

Here's what happened to me 4 years ago.

Team mgr, a young man with Down Syndrome. Wears red wristbands, given to him by his grandfather, everywhere.

Final home game of the season. It's widely known that the young man's grandfather had passed early in the season and everyone knows that he's getting into the game at some point. Home team up big in final two minutes..... enter the young man wearing his red wristbands. (not a school color)

Young man enters game, crosses himself, kisses his wristbands and points to the sky. Not a dry eye in the house, present company included.

He scored two points and was carried off the court by both teams...... While wearing his illegal wristbands.

I challenge anyone to say they could look dead into a TV camera and state with conviction that the rule he was "breaking" was more important than what took place in the final two minutes of that game.

Camron Rust Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:43pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by asdf (Post 923378)
Here's what happened to me 4 years ago.

Team mgr, a young man with Down Syndrome. Wears red wristbands, given to him by his grandfather, everywhere.

Final home game of the season. It's widely known that the young man's grandfather had passed early in the season and everyone knows that he's getting into the game at some point. Home team up big in final two minutes..... enter the young man wearing his red wristbands. (not a school color)

Young man enters game, crosses himself, kisses his wristbands and points to the sky. Not a dry eye in the house, present company included.

He scored two points and was carried off the court by both teams...... While wearing his illegal wristbands.

I challenge anyone to say they could look dead into a TV camera and state with conviction that the rule he was "breaking" was more important than what took place in the final two minutes of this game.

For that matter, I'd call a shooting foul on the other team just to get him to the line if he couldn't get a clean shot!

bwburke94 Mon Feb 17, 2014 11:49pm

Regardless of the situation, not calling a T is ridiculous. If he wasn't in the book, he wasn't in the book.

asdf Tue Feb 18, 2014 06:50am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 923381)
For that matter, I'd call a shooting foul on the other team just to get him to the line if he couldn't get a clean shot!

Have done this plenty of times in grade school games.... "coach, who needs to score?"...followed by a "foul".....

Then again, for some, that action would be considered unethical and punishable.

BillyMac Tue Feb 18, 2014 07:13am

Technicality ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bwburke94 (Post 923387)
If he wasn't in the book, he wasn't in the book.

Remember, the technical foul is not for him not being in the book, it would be for his name being added to the book.

bob jenkins Tue Feb 18, 2014 09:07am

Quote:

Originally Posted by asdf (Post 923378)
(not a school color)

It was, on that day.

MD Longhorn Tue Feb 18, 2014 09:45am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 923028)
So why wouldn't a team which has a special situation and knows that they possibly wish to play a certain kid simply list him at the bottom of the roster for the final home game?
Simple planning by the coaching staff prevents putting the officials in an awkward spot.

Unless someone (scorer or possibly opposing coach) points out that the kid was not in the book ... how are we to know. I check the book, but I don't memorize it. We are not in any awkward position here.

MD Longhorn Tue Feb 18, 2014 09:48am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 923032)
I didn't know that the coaches had the ability to waive playing rules.

The officials are supposed to be objective administrators of the game.
We can't ignore or set aside rules because people want us to.

I pray you're not ever involved in something like this. For your sake and for the kids'.

berserkBBK Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:35am

That player was just signed by the 76ers


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