5th foul sub mechanic
 

#10 incurs 5th and is a shooting foul. Is sub brought in before or after 1st foul shot?

Immediately upon being notified it is his 5th foul. Bring all other reported subs in at the same time.

"Proper" mechanic is to notify partner(s), coach (which triggers the 20 sec replacement interval and makes player "bench personnel"), and finally, player.
Get sub and continue with FT administration.

There is no recourse or possible corrections if this procedure is not followed and no impact on free throws that may follow, so don't ask!!!!.
Player is not DQ unless and until coach is notified.

Before.


Table notifies you that it's the player's 5th foul.
You notify the coach that it's the player's 5th foul (at this point, the player is considered bench personnel for purposes of Technical Fouls and such).
You tell the table to start the 20-second replacement interval.
Coach sends in a substitute for fouled-out player, substitute enters game. (If there are any other substitutes waiting to enter, bring them in at this point also).

If he doesn't make a sub available right away, order timer to time "20 seconds, give a horn after 5," and stand on the division line between sideline and center circle.

I don't even wait. "Coach, that's 5. Timer, go." No time to stand anywhere, cause the warning horn is at 5 seconds and that interval is stressed by me in my pregame with the timer. There's no time for a free timeout if a fifth foul is handled properly.

My 2 cents
 

I actually pre-game who is going to administer the 5th foul.

In these parts, we go opposite table, so the calling official will be the new C. The trail sometimes handles the 5th foul administration and the new C will just go away.

Or occassionally the new C will stay and finish out the administration.

I don't really have a preference, but I like to know before the game who is doing what.

My pregame (when I remember) is "If it's a problem, go away and let someone else deal with it. If they're just fouling to stop the clock and everyone knows it, stay and deal with it."

It's just not that hard to adjust.

Also need to notify your partners that the player is disqualified so that your partners don't start administering the free throws or throw-in. Also, supposed to notifiy the disqualified player after starting the 20-second clock.

Does anyone always make an attempt to have the non-calling official do the administration or informing the coach and starting the clock?

I was just wondering because when we first went table side under the mechanics, many people were always trying to tell the coach through the non-calling official. Now, no one cares anymore. It makes absolutely no difference to me other than saying time, but most of the time in my games or with my partners the calling official tells the coach.

Peace

That's 25's Fifth Foul Coach ...
 

From my pregame: Game management: If I call a fifth foul on a player, I’ll tell the coach, unless I think it’s going to be a problem.

And, at least up until now, it's never been a problem.

To tag onto your comment. I don't rush to start clock nor do I take my time. I try and say start the clock loud enough that coach is aware. I grab the extra seconds by making sure partners are aware, either in bounding or at the line.

That said, I had a game with Bob the other night and probably did none of the above.

What's the problem? You trying to do your job and a coach who can't control himself acting like a fool? I'll inform the coach/table/player on all 5th fouls that I call. I don't care if a coach is a "problem" or not. That's my job to deal with it.

There's a pretty good saying that I like

Manage the unavoidable and
Avoid the unmanageable.

This sometimes falls under the second one. If a coach is really going to go off, it looks like money if the non-calling official whacks him. If I just made the call and then I go and tell the coach and then I whack him...that might be perceived as my issue.

Just food for thought.

The table notifies me. I turn to the coach, say "That's 5." Then I start the clock from the same position, THEN I make sure my partners and player know. By then, we've already had the first horn and a sub better be on the way to the table to report.

If the team has enough time to, essentially, have a free 30-second timeout, I'm not doing my job.

There's no honor in throwing gasoline on an already-established fire.

Just sayin'.

Fire, Let Me Introduce You To Gasoline ...
 

IAABO mechanics (can't speak for NFHS mechanics) give us the option of having the noncalling official tell the coach about the fifth foul, and to start the replacement clock. I've never had to opportunity to use this option, but IAABO probably has this option in place for a good reason.

I have no problem dealing with a coach that's upset, but I'm not going to get in pissing contest with him if it's unavoidable, and allowed by the mechanics set that I utilize. Sometimes it's not about being macho. If all it takes is an extra switch, or a no switch (in lots of situations, not just this specific one), to avoid escalating problems, than I'm all for it. I seldom use it, but I'm all for it.

There is nothing that requires us to go over to the Coach and inform him that it is the player's 5th foul...like Rich, I do it all from the same position. Report the foul - they tell me it is #5, I turn and inform the Coach from right there. Start the clock from right there. Tell partners from right there. The only times I have ever seen any problems is when a partner has gone over to the bench area to tell the Coach.

Excellent point. No reason to stick around after starting the clock, either. We can beckon the replacement from anywhere.

I don't get this sentiment. We inform the coach as we need to. Why do we have to censor ourselves because the coach can't control his emotions? This is not adding gasoline. Adding gasoline would be going over and saying something dumb to the coach.

I don't really care about how much money I look like. I care about doing my job. Perception is different from the vantage point of who is doing the perceiving. I believe in facts and repercussions. I'm not a teenager that needs my partner to step in to handle the big scary coach. The coach's actions are what determines punishment, not mine. I will not run from my responsibility and I will not placate a coach simply to "avoid" a confrontation. Half the onus is on him too, and this is not "avoiding the unmanageable" this is just doing your job.

If I bait the coach, then shame on me. If the coach wants to say something stupid that may or may not earn him a T, then that's on him. Perception and facts are two very different things, and I hope your assignor knows the difference.

I have been told two things involving this procedure. First, instruct the timer in the pregame to give you a signal for 20 seconds, but not buzz the horn. That gives you freedom to avoid a technical, at least for a bit. Second, don't approach the coach. If he wants to come to you and he has to come out of the coaching box. Both things give an extra layer of insulation.

This contradicts the rules.

That's a really bad idea.

First, as deecee already said, it goes against what the rule book says.

Second, the Coach knows (or should) that he has 20 seconds and will be listening for that horn.

And I really don't get the whole "avoid the technical" thinking here...

I am with you, I do not get this attitude. We have the right to do our job and the coach is in control of their attitude or what they say.

And I do not think telling a coach they have a player with 5 fouls does anything either way if a coach wants to get at you. They could yell across the court and that behavior has to be addressed too.

And telling a coach that a player has 5 fouls does not mean you have to get in their fact. I stay at the table for the most part and make sure the sub comes. I am often 20 feet away from a coach when this takes place. Often the coach already knows they fouled out and they are trying to call their players over to take advantage of the 20 seconds.

Peace

Smarter Than The Average Bear ...
 

Which, in some cases might be, "That's 25's fifth foul coach".

If the official knows, for sure, that saying this will further exacerbate this situation, based on some previous comments by the coach, why "push it" if the mechanics set that one works under allows an option that may avoid a technical foul, or an ejection.

If you have this tool in your toolbelt (some might not), and don't use it, that's the same as saying "something dumb", maybe, at its absolute worst, a form of baiting.

We're smarter than coaches. Let's prove it.

I can't speak about NFHS mechanics, but IAABO offers an option for a reason. If there was not reason for the option, IAABO wouldn't offer it.

As I've said in the past, I've never used this option in my thirty-three years, but I like to have it in my "game management" toolbelt, because I may want to use it tomorrow night.

Along similar lines, this (following) is always part of my pregame, and, unlike the fifth foul situation, I use this one: If one of us calls a technical foul on a coach, the noncalling official will remind the coach that he must sit down.

Thirty Seconds ???
 

rockyroad: You give coaches way too much credit. A few weeks ago, I had a coach ask for his thirty seconds to replace a disqualified player. Silly monkey.

If this is what sets the coach off then that is on him 100%. This is not a dumb statement, but one of fact. As long as we implement mechanics to acquiesce to coaches who are upset we have no business complaining about coaches behavior. We either choose to deal with it or we don't.

I've Got To Be, A Macho Man ...
 

It might be a dumb statement if you know, 100% for sure, that it's going to "set him off". Why not avoid it, why bait him into a technical foul, when it can be avoided? I hope that you're not of those officials who puts notches on his pistol grip.

I know that there are not a lot of IAABO-philes out there, even among IAABO members, but there has to be a reason why this option is in the book. What's the NFHS say?

I don't find myself agreeing with you on this part of the game very often ... but I sure do here. We don't need to put as much effort in deciding what will or will not set off a coach as some seem to be intimating. If a coach just HAS to get that T, he will do so. Preventative officating here (as everywhere) is fine, but it seems some are advocating bending over backward to avoid having to issue a technical foul. I don't see that. If the guy's that borderline, let him have his T - sometimes that's the most efficient way to cool a hothead anyway.

I don't notch my belt, this year I have 3 T's all on players. This isn't baiting. Doing your job and baiting are 2 different things Billy. I don't "try" to avoid technical fouls. I just do my job and if they happen they happen. I cannot control how a coach or player reacts anymore than I can control what my significant other is cooking for dinner.

Intimidation ...
 

Not me. Not in thirty-three years. Why? Because I don't want to let the coach perceive that I can be intimidated, as I run away from him to the other side of the court, and let him deal with my partner.

But it's a game management tool that IAABO gives us. And it may be a good tool for some hot headed officials. Yes, there are hot headed officials, just as there are hot headed coaches. And maybe it's a good idea for a hot headed official to remove himself from the vicinity of the coach, and take a few breaths while his partner deals with the coach.

I often use the "remind the coach he can't stand" option. I'm occasionally pissed when I charge a technical foul to a coach. Maybe I need to go administer a few free throws, and calm down, even when I'm not supposed to switch that way. Do others employ this form of game management?

And No, I Don't Usually Call Coaches Honey ...
 

Hey honey, how about pork chops, and applesauce, tonight?

Can you give me the citation that says the timer must sound the horn at the expiration of the 20 seconds?

At least he knew there was a time limit...and when the horn sounds, he knows he is running out of time! :p

Agreed...it's almost as if we think calling a T is somehow a failure on our part. "Oh no, I've called a T. What did I do wrong to cause this???? If only I had let my partner be the one to tell the Coach...":rolleyes:

T'd an Assistant Coach last Friday for standing up and yelling at my Partner's back...T'd a Head Coach Monday for screaming at me about a travel call...in both cases, after they had calmed down, the Coach wanted to know why I was mad at them. I responded the same both times - "Coach, I am not mad. There was no anger on my part at all."

2.12.5 Ruling (c)

Good find. They should have written that into 2-15-5 in the first place. Wouldn't be too hard.

So you think it's your job to tell the coach his player fouls out, as the calling official? Isn't that a crew responsibility?

I'm already at the table reporting the foul, so yes! If it happens that it's a 3 man game and the table is late to inform us and I am opposite the table then whomever is close can do the honors. Other than that just do your damn job and stop being concerned with players/coaches feelings, it actually makes officiating much much much much much much much easier.

Then your job is pretty hard.

Yeah ... those 5-6 extra words the 10 times a week someone fouls out is downright exhausting...

I find this whole tirade fairly interesting.

You say you are at the table already reporting the foul. I didn't know we walked up to the table to report a foul. The new Trail is also there, so they are easily also capable of handling it.

Around these parts, I hand out more technicals than most. Those things call themselves. Letting my partner who is the Trail handle the 5th foul administration doesn't mean I'm not doing my job. It means I believe in crew concepts at all times. It's not me on court, it's us on the court.

But you do you.


As an edit: I'm on the men's side, so we go opposite table. So the trail is always table side.

To me officiating, like anything else in life, is as difficult as I let it be. Like I said earlier, and this is one of my views on life, I have 0/no/none/zilch/nada control over other peoples emotions/feelings/behavior and I do not care about how they "may" react. Informing a coach about anything is just part of the job, and I don't think or see it necessary, as an adult to hand that responsibility over to my partner because I am "scared" of a little confrontation.

I mean some of the excuses and reasons being thrown around reminds me of the sheepish kid who doesn't want to make eye contact with their parents because they fear getting scolded. If you are a good official then you have NO problem dealing with and addressing a coach when needed and penalizing him when warranted. You also don't need your partner to ride in on his white horse. This to me undermines *your* authority in a major way.

**DISCLAIMER** Above is my opinion and sentiment on how adults should act and officials should officiate. These views are not of officiating.com or any of it's subsidiaries.

Before I'm done with this thread one question.

Why do you keep using the word "scared"? or big scary coach?

You are the only one that used it in this thread. They call that projection in many circles.

Because the sentiment is to *NOT* anger or annoy the coach anymore. All the reasons given have been to appease the coach, therefore the safe assumption is to avoid confrontation because the coach *may* get out of hand. Not projection, just some assumption and conclusions.

While I agree 99% of the time, it isn't an issue, and most of us are quite capable of dealing with most of the other 1%, I don't agree with your assumptions here. They're unwarranted.

Let's check the source
 

NFHS Officials Manual CREW OF TWO
2.4.2 H. Disqualification Procedure:
1. The non-calling official shall notify the coach and request the timer to begin the replacement interval, and then notify the disqualified player.

Curious, isn't it?

PS: The only reason I would want my partner to inform the coach is that I'd hate to write the report to our assignor if I had to toss him/her for an unbecoming response. . .

Noncalling Official ...
 

So? Of the two major set of mechanics, nationally, one insists that the noncalling official deal with the coach, and the other gives the option of the noncalling official dealing with the coach.

Interesting. There has to be a commmon reason for this mechanic. Very interesting.

Of course we know that there are a lot of state, and local, mechanics sets out there, so, as usual, when in Rome ...

I don't particularly care wether I anger or annoy the coach. I am simply enforcing the rules of basketball and administering them according to approved mechanics. If this evokes further reaction from a coach that needs to be handled, I'll handle it. I am very careful to always be professional and to appear very calm in these situations so that the coach has nothing to use as amunition for a real complaint. As we say in my chapter all the time, you will never get zapped for going be the book or for using sound judgemennt but you will get zapped for kicking a rule, poor mechanics, or unprofessionalism.

Inform coach first
 

The reason I tell the coach as soon as I am notified by the table, start the timer, and THEN tell the player is because the player becomes bench personnel as soon as coach is notified. Any unsporting actions by this player could now cause the coach an indirect T which helps motivate the coach to get him off the vourt and to control his behavior. I consider this to be one of the many tools we have been given to mannage and control the game.

I Just Remembered This Thread Starter ...
 

http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...tml#post686961

Maybe if I had allowed my partner inform the coach that it was his player's fifth foul, the situation wouldn't have deteriorated as it did?

Or maybe I made a mistake by saying, "That's enough coach."?

Or maybe I should have run away for him after saying, "That's enough coach."?

Or, maybe the coach was just an idiot, and nothing would have prevented his ejection?

You know what, it's been four years, and I'm still glad that I ran his ass out of the gym.

Sometimes you just throw "game management" out the window, and give 'em the old heave ho.