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grunewar Sun Feb 02, 2014 08:05am

OT - John Feinstein - How to Make College Basketball Better
 
College basketball games are too long, but quick fixes could be made - The Washington Post

From the article:

Issue: The notion that every player must slap every teammate’s hand after his first free throw is maddening. It also slows the game down even more.

Issue: End Game - After a team’s 12th foul, make any foul three shots. And, after a team’s 15th foul, give the team that is fouled two shots and the ball.

JRutledge Sun Feb 02, 2014 08:32am

I stopped listening to this clown years ago. Not sure I want to listen to him now. He as usual is trying to act like he knows more about the game than those that are directly around the game.

He lost me totally when he said the NCAA told officials how to call a "Block" rather than knowing the rule changed to make situations a block. I honestly d not care about the rest of his suggestions when he is that stupid.

Peace

bainsey Sun Feb 02, 2014 12:04pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by grunewar (Post 920940)
Issue: The notion that every player must slap every teammate’s hand after his first free throw is maddening. It also slows the game down even more.

The ironic thing is, the warning process takes longer than slapping itself. We're taught to only warn if they're slowing down the game.

Quote:

Issue: End Game - After a team’s 12th foul, make any foul three shots. And, after a team’s 15th foul, give the team that is fouled two shots and the ball.
The whole reason behind the "double bonus" is to deter teams from fouling down the stretch. Has it worked?

Rich Sun Feb 02, 2014 12:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 920970)
The ironic thing is, the warning process takes longer than slapping itself. We're taught to only warn if they're slowing down the game.


The whole reason behind the "double bonus" is to deter teams from fouling down the stretch. Has it worked?

I'm still trying to figure out what's wrong with fouling down the stretch. It's an acceptable part of the game and has been for a long time.

Solution seeking a problem, as usual.

Adam Sun Feb 02, 2014 12:10pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 920970)
The whole reason behind the "double bonus" is to deter teams from fouling down the stretch. Has it worked?

Another solution in search of a problem, it seems. I rarely see more than 1 or 2 fouls in this situation. It typically either works or spreads the lead enough to put it completely out of reach.

eyezen Sun Feb 02, 2014 01:44pm

"Issue: The notion that every player must slap every teammate’s hand after his first free throw is maddening. It also slows the game down even more."

This guy better stay away from girl's softball or volleyball or he's liable to go batshit insane.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Sun Feb 02, 2014 03:39pm

Issue #1: See the NCAA Rules Book. NCAA R4-S17-A1d: A delay is any action that impedes the progress or continuity of the game. Such actions include, but are not limited to: Repeatedly delaying the game by preventing the ball from being promptly put into play, such as delaying the administration of a throw-in or free throw by engaging in a team huddle anywhere on the playing court (See Rule 10-S2-A5b, which states: After a team warning has been issued, repeatedly delaying the game by preventing the ball from being promptly put in play, such as delaying the administration of a throw-in or free throw by engaging in a team huddle anyplace on the playing court. PENALTY: (Art. 4 and 5) Two free throws awarded to the offended team. The ball shall be put back in play at the point of interruption.).

This solution is no different that in the NFHS Rules Book. The real problem is at the JrHS and HS level: Officials do NOT enforce the rule from the beginning of the game; maybe it is time it becomes a POE in both the NFHS and NCAA Rules books. The NFHS rule has been in the book for close to twenty years and yet I have coaches tell me that they have never heard of such a rule. And this is not a sexist statement but girls' teams are worse than boys' teams when it comes to violating this rule. I have yet to charge a team with a TF for this infraction but MTD, Jr., and I do issue the Official Warnings when appropriate as specified in NFHS R4-S47.


Issue #2: I have talked with officiating friends for years with awarding three FTs starting with the 13th foul of the half, but everybody things it is too extreme for a penalty.

Mark, Jr., and I had an afternoon game yesterday and listened to the Duke-Syracuse (Syracusa for "our" friends; look up the rules for being in the Costra Nostra or Mafia, ;).) on our ride home. Bob Valvano was the color commentator for ESPN on the game and he freely discussed the possibility of Syracuse fouling to prevent Duke from attempting a three-point FG.


Just two items that the Rules Committees should look at for next year.

MTD, Sr.


P.S. Regarding Issue #2. As a student of the game (very few people know that I can claim to come from an coaching background) and I do not have a problem with a team fouling at the end of the game. But I would like to see a "triple" bonus, if you will, adopted in the future, because I think at a certain point in the game, a team giving up two FTs to keep a team from scoring a three-point FG is an unbalance in the rules.

Adam Sun Feb 02, 2014 03:42pm

I had a team try to foul early when up by 3 with 4 seconds left. Unfortunately, by the time they actually fouled the kid, he had started his shooting motion with about .9 left.

Kid missed the first FT though.

APG Sun Feb 02, 2014 04:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 921011)

Just two items that the Rules Committees should look at for next year.

MTD, Sr.

I hope the rules committee has more important things to look at than players holding up the FT administration by a whole five seconds.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Sun Feb 02, 2014 04:22pm

I have added a P.S. to my OP.

MTD, Sr.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Sun Feb 02, 2014 04:26pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by APG (Post 921016)
I hope the rules committee has more important things to look at than players holding up the FT administration by a whole five seconds.


APG:

I do not believe the rule needs to be changed, I just think that it should be a POE. Nothing bugs me more that to be ready to administer a FT and I have to wait while because the FT Thrower has to slap five with her four teammates. If officials would just make one "unofficial" warning the first time it happens, 90% of the time it won't happen again, and if an Official warning is issued the next time it will not happen again period. Players learn very quickly.

MTD, Sr.

Adam Sun Feb 02, 2014 04:28pm

The triple bonus wouldn't do anything. Most times, when a team is ahead by three and ready to foul, they aren't anywhere near 13 or 15 fouls for the half. It would only be effective for this tactic by random chance.

Unless you are going to suggest three shots for a team trailing by three when there is a common foul with less than 5 seconds left (or some other arbitrary parameters).

APG Sun Feb 02, 2014 04:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 921026)
APG:

I do not believe the rule needs to be changed, I just think that it should be a POE. Nothing bugs me more that to be ready to administer a FT and I have to wait while because the FT Thrower has to slap five with her four teammates. If officials would just make one "unofficial" warning the first time it happens, 90% of the time it won't happen again, and if an Official warning is issued the next time it will not happen again period. Players learn very quickly.

MTD, Sr.

It'd be a waste of a POE if you ask me...I've never heard anyone complain about having to wait a few extra seconds to administer FT's. I think the rule is fine as it is...for situations that are truly causing a real appreciable delay in the game.

JRutledge Sun Feb 02, 2014 04:34pm

Teams will still foul even if they give them 3 shots. Especially if the total is close. It is not going to change things that drastically. And that is not the reason the games are taking longer in closer games for example.

Peace

Altor Sun Feb 02, 2014 10:51pm

Three FTs may be a bit much, but I could see going to a 3-to-make-2 type of bonus.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Sun Feb 02, 2014 11:18pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altor (Post 921042)
Three FTs may be a bit much, but I could see going to a 3-to-make-2 type of bonus.


That would make the game last just as long as awarding three FTs and the team could only score no more than two points.

MTD, Sr.

Sharpshooternes Mon Feb 03, 2014 02:48am

Quote:

Originally Posted by APG (Post 921031)
It'd be a waste of a POE if you ask me...I've never heard anyone complain about having to wait a few extra seconds to administer FT's. I think the rule is fine as it is...for situations that are truly causing a real appreciable delay in the game.

I am curious about the history of this rule. What situation back in the day created an advantage for a team so much so that they had to make a rule about it? Anyone know?

j51969 Mon Feb 03, 2014 09:29am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 920941)
I stopped listening to this clown years ago. Not sure I want to listen to him now. He as usual is trying to act like he knows more about the game than those that are directly around the game.

He lost me totally when he said the NCAA told officials how to call a "Block" rather than knowing the rule changed to make situations a block. I honestly d not care about the rest of his suggestions when he is that stupid.

Peace

+1

Just another talking head trying to look smart. No different IMO when an official makes a close call (usually block/charge). After which they look at 16 replays in slow motion (from 10 camera angles), and the annoucers talk about how that was a bad call. In all fairness we do this every day on here. Except we us these situations as a teaching/discussion tool. Not for ripping someone who just made a judgment call in a split second. These guys are why I have a mute button and a DVR.

Altor Mon Feb 03, 2014 01:20pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 921045)
That would make the game last just as long as awarding three FTs and the team could only score no more than two points.

MTD, Sr.

I think the purpose of the idea is to discourage teams from fouling at the end of a game that is out of reach. That would cut the game length. In my opinion, 3 points unbalances the game too much to be worthy of consideration. But if they really want to go a route like this, giving the offended team an extra chance to make a second point seems reasonable.

And for the record, I don't think any change is really necessary. "Solution in search of a problem" is probably pretty accurate.

Also, my guess is that this is coming from somebody who watches mostly D-I games that are televised. It's the same people who wanted to shorten the length of football games. The problem isn't the game...it's all the stinking TV timeouts. Before the new NCAA timing rules in football, I was going to D-III games that were over in 2.5 hours. Amazingly, the timing rules were changed and we are still seeing 3.5 hour football games on television. The broadcasters just used the extra time taken from the game to add more commercials.

amusedofficial Tue Feb 04, 2014 05:17am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 920941)
I stopped listening to this clown years ago. Not sure I want to listen to him now. He as usual is trying to act like he knows more about the game than those that are directly around the game.

He lost me totally when he said the NCAA told officials how to call a "Block" rather than knowing the rule changed to make situations a block. I honestly d not care about the rest of his suggestions when he is that stupid.

Peace

Best. Comment. Ever.

amusedofficial Tue Feb 04, 2014 05:21am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altor (Post 921042)
Three FTs may be a bit much, but I could see going to a 3-to-make-2 type of bonus.

A return to three for two (well the NBA had it) ? What's next, bringing back the foul paddles? Two shots for a backcourt foul?

Scrapper1 Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:22am

Instead of awarding more FTs or awarding FTs and possession after a certain number of fouls has been reached, how about an NFL-style "10-second runoff" after the 12th or 15th foul or whatever.

(10 seconds might be too much, but 5 or 3 seconds would still be a deterrent, I would think.)

APG Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:57am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1 (Post 921383)
Instead of awarding more FTs or awarding FTs and possession after a certain number of fouls has been reached, how about an NFL-style "10-second runoff" after the 12th or 15th foul or whatever.

(10 seconds might be too much, but 5 or 3 seconds would still be a deterrent, I would think.)

That would lead to teams to start fouling earlier.

Adam Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1 (Post 921383)
Instead of awarding more FTs or awarding FTs and possession after a certain number of fouls has been reached, how about an NFL-style "10-second runoff" after the 12th or 15th foul or whatever.

(10 seconds might be too much, but 5 or 3 seconds would still be a deterrent, I would think.)

I think it would be a decent idea, if it was a problem that needed solving.


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