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-   -   Ok, here's an easy question for your seasoned vets.... (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/97154-ok-heres-easy-question-your-seasoned-vets.html)

gr8fuldiver Thu Jan 30, 2014 07:32pm

Ok, here's an easy question for your seasoned vets....
 
Hi guys,

I was wondering if you could explain (in laymen's terms) when is the proper time for the lead to initiate a rotation? I am not sure how long the ball should be on a certain side before I switch. Also (along those same lines), if I am say table side as I am sprinting down to take lead, and the ball comes up table side opposite, how long should I wait until I rotate? I know these are probably pretty simple questions, but you guys have been so helpful in the past, I am looking forward to your advice and instructions today.

Take care and good luck in districts....

Rob1968 Thu Jan 30, 2014 08:10pm

A basic overview is found in the Officials Manual, 3.3.3. Some additional guidelines regarding post match-ups on the Center's side may be added, by your local trainers and mentors.

BktBallRef Thu Jan 30, 2014 10:10pm

The thoughts posted below are purely my own:

#1, boys or girls? Girls seem to move the ball from side to side more. We don't rotate as often in girls'games.

#2, don't rotate until all 3 officials are in the FC. Then, we usually wait until the ball settles below the FT line extended.

#3, notice tendencies. Do they have a big man who posts up in the low post? Do they run plays to a certain side of the floor? Do they unbalance the floor? Those are also reasons to rotate.

#4, if the C moves toward the division line to officiate a matchup, you can rotate to that side of the floor.

#5, if the ball swings to the C's side but you anticipate a shot, hold your position and don't get caught moving across the lane with a shot in the air.

#6, when you rotate, move with purpose but focus on your matchup. Don't ball hawk while you rotate.

Help that helps.

bob jenkins Thu Jan 30, 2014 11:03pm

7. If you're looking across, go across. If you're looking on your side, stay.

8. If C has more matchups (and the ball) than s/he should be expected to handle, go across.

9. If the action pushes (or pulls) C high, go across.

Quote:

if I am say table side as I am sprinting down to take lead, and the ball comes up table side opposite,
Do you officiate in an MC Escher gym?

Rich Thu Jan 30, 2014 11:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BktBallRef (Post 920687)

#2, don't rotate until all 3 officials are in the FC. Then, we usually wait until the ball settles below the FT line extended.

I don't worry much about the location of the ball or whether it settles there, anymore.

I do tend to rotate quite a bit. I go where I feel I am best serving the game as the L, even if it means a few rotations per possession.

Some of my thoughts:

If the C has a closely guarded count, the L should be moving over there.

If you think the ball could get thrown down into the post, it's too late to get over there once the post player has the ball. Get there before the pass comes in.

Listen to Bob.

Bad Zebra Fri Jan 31, 2014 08:29am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 920689)
7. If you're looking across, go across. If you're looking on your side, stay.

To echo this...a wise old vet told me many years ago..."If it's interesting enough for you to look over there...then go there". Sounds pretty simplistic but I've always found it useful.

CountTheBasket Fri Jan 31, 2014 08:45am

10. If you're in one of those "dazes" during a blowout and you feel like you've been running back and forth in the same spot for an hour, rotate to wake everyone up!! I'm actually only half joking....Something I've found useful, I usually just mention it to my partners at halftime if we have an ugly game and see if anyone objects.

BatteryPowered Fri Jan 31, 2014 09:18am

I was also taught that if the ball seems to be "hanging out" in the general area of the top of the key (middle third of the floor) you should close down to the lane line on you side of the floor. That will allow you to rotate more quickly. Just because you are not rotating does not mean you are not moving (a step or two) as lead be in better position.

It may be different in your world.

Rich Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:14am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BatteryPowered (Post 920712)
I was also taught that if the ball seems to be "hanging out" in the general area of the top of the key (middle third of the floor) you should close down to the lane line on you side of the floor. That will allow you to rotate more quickly. Just because you are not rotating does not mean you are not moving (a step or two) as lead be in better position.

It may be different in your world.

Mirror the ball. If it's at the top of the key, I'm closed down. I'm never closed down so that I'm "inside the ball" unless it's in the corner.

BigT Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:19am

If you start a rotation and there is a quick shot or drive back out. Your partners will be watching that shot or drive and not see your rotation.

Adam Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:35am

Here, we move when:
1. The ball drops below the FT line extended on the C's side.
or
2. The C starts a 5 second count
or
3. The L finds himself looking across the paint at a matchup.

As far as transition, I won't wait for all the officials to get into the FC. I can always go back if the ball goes quickly the other way and the other two didn't have a chance to rotate. I'd rather have a good look at the play and worry about adjusting later if need be. If it's clear the play is on the other side of the lane and I have a chance to get over, I'll go.

stick Fri Jan 31, 2014 02:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by gr8fuldiver (Post 920676)
Hi guys,

I was wondering if you could explain (in laymen's terms) when is the proper time for the lead to initiate a rotation? I am not sure how long the ball should be on a certain side before I switch. Also (along those same lines), if I am say table side as I am sprinting down to take lead, and the ball comes up table side opposite, how long should I wait until I rotate? I know these are probably pretty simple questions, but you guys have been so helpful in the past, I am looking forward to your advice and instructions today.

Take care and good luck in districts....

I'm pretty much with Adam on this one. One thing to keep in mind is if your going to flex, go all the way, even if the flow of the play goes opposite. You can always flex back if that happens.
As far as transition if the ball is brought up opposite side of where I'm at I'll sometimes flex as soon as the ball goes over half court if it looks like the flow of the play will be on that side. But as a rule I remind my partners in our pre-game that I will do that and to be heads up.
But flexing on the transition isn't always necessary.

CountTheBasket Fri Jan 31, 2014 02:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by stick (Post 920773)
.... as a rule I remind my partners in our pre-game that I will do that and to be heads up.....
.

I think this is a huge positive, and I always bring up rotations in a pregame. They are definetly something you need to have a feel for and they get easier over time, but if each person just shares the way they like to work and it gets everyone on the same page. Also, awareness is huge, because if a rotation gets botched, and noticed relativley quickly, just fill in and odds are the three of you will be the only ones who notice.

johnny d Fri Jan 31, 2014 02:41pm

Wow, you guys have really detailed pre-games. My usually consist of four words: don't **** it up. If it is an important game, I might lengthen that to: make sure you don't **** it up.

Sco53 Fri Jan 31, 2014 03:01pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny d (Post 920776)
Wow, you guys have really detailed pre-games. My usually consist of four words: don't **** it up. If it is an important game, I might lengthen that to: make sure you don't **** it up.

I like "don't let anybody **** your game up"

Adam Fri Jan 31, 2014 03:29pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny d (Post 920776)
Wow, you guys have really detailed pre-games. My usually consist of four words: don't **** it up. If it is an important game, I might lengthen that to: make sure you don't **** it up.

Sounds like a summer game pregame when your partners shows up 30 seconds before tip off. I don't know a single official, high school or college, who would actually do this.

CountTheBasket Fri Jan 31, 2014 03:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 920789)
Sounds like a summer game pregame when your partners shows up 30 seconds before tip off. I don't know a single official, high school or college, who would actually do this.

Yea different areas work different ways I suppose but I've always been a part of detailed pre-games as well consisting of everything from specifics about that nights game to discussions on various players similar to what takes place in here.

Rich Fri Jan 31, 2014 03:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 920789)
Sounds like a summer game pregame when your partners shows up 30 seconds before tip off. I don't know a single official, high school or college, who would actually do this.

I have a set 3-person crew for quite a few games. Sometimes our pregames resemble this.

johnny d Fri Jan 31, 2014 04:01pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 920789)
Sounds like a summer game pregame when your partners shows up 30 seconds before tip off. I don't know a single official, high school or college, who would actually do this.

I don't do, nor have I ever done MS games, so I couldn't tell you what the expectations are at that level.

You haven't worked with me, or you would have had such a pregame. Seriously, using some of the information in this post as an example, why do I need to have you tell me when you are going to rotate or when you expect me to rotate? I am going to rotate when I feel it is necessary, regardless of what your expectations are. I wont remember what you told me about your philosophy on rotations and I have been doing this long enough to realize that you have rotated out there on the court and that I need to move from C to T or from T to C. Most of this stuff is redundant and the people working the games, at least at the college level, know what the expectations are and don't need to go over it before every game. Neither I nor most of my colleagues need to be reminded that in an NCAA-M game the L is going to get first crack at block/charge plays in the paint involving secondary defenders. Now if you want to discuss team, player, or coach tendencies for that nights game. I am more than willing to do so. That has the potential to at least have some impact on the game. But that is usually limited in scope as well.

BatteryPowered Fri Jan 31, 2014 04:09pm

I always cover the basic stuff...making sure we both know the floor coverage, going over double whistles, pass and crash responsibilities, trusting your partner, what to do in the event of a T, things that may be different than NFHS for our area, etc,

I also like to know/discuss things about the teams and the gym. How many clocks and their location, proximity to the spectators, unusual bench locations, if one of us has called one of the teams that season...any problems with the coach (are they typically calm or antimated), do they like to run, do they swing the ball back and forth a lot (especially for 3-man), and special players (ie. exceptionally fast, big, like to bang, No. X tends to use their hands). That is not so we can go into a game with preconcieved things, but it helps to prepare us (at least me) for the game by forcing us to think about basketball.

Now...after introductions when we are ready to move to our spots we usually shake/fist bump and say "Don't screw up."

BktBallRef Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:45am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 920692)
I don't worry much about the location of the ball or whether it settles there, anymore.

I said the same thing, I just used fewer words.

I don't rotate to a side just because a pass goes to the C's side of the floor.

More times than not, if the ball settles below the FT line extended,
1- the C will probably have a closely guarded matchup
2- the C will have more matchups than he can handle
3- I'm probably looking to that side.

BktBallRef Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:52am

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny d (Post 920796)
I don't do, nor have I ever done MS games, so I couldn't tell you what the expectations are at that level.

You haven't worked with me, or you would have had such a pregame. Seriously, using some of the information in this post as an example, why do I need to have you tell me when you are going to rotate or when you expect me to rotate? I am going to rotate when I feel it is necessary, regardless of what your expectations are. I wont remember what you told me about your philosophy on rotations and I have been doing this long enough to realize that you have rotated out there on the court and that I need to move from C to T or from T to C. Most of this stuff is redundant and the people working the games, at least at the college level, know what the expectations are and don't need to go over it before every game. Neither I nor most of my colleagues need to be reminded that in an NCAA-M game the L is going to get first crack at block/charge plays in the paint involving secondary defenders. Now if you want to discuss team, player, or coach tendencies for that nights game. I am more than willing to do so. That has the potential to at least have some impact on the game. But that is usually limited in scope as well.

So you just assume everyone knows what they're supposed to do.

Unfortunately, not all of us have that luxury.

Rich Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:52am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BktBallRef (Post 920834)
I said the same thing, I just used fewer words.

I don't rotate to a side just because a pass goes to the C's side of the floor.

More times than not, if the ball settles below the FT line extended,
1- the C will probably have a closely guarded matchup
2- the C will have more matchups than he can handle
3- I'm probably looking to that side.

I'll rotate just as much if the ball settles above the FT line extended, though, as post players tend to set up on that side. It's just not a line that means a whole lot to me.

johnny d Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:55am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BktBallRef (Post 920835)
So you just assume everyone knows what they're supposed to do.

Unfortunately, not all of us have that luxury.


At the college level, yes, I assume everyone knows what they are supposed to do or they would not be on the game.

BktBallRef Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:55am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 920836)
I'll rotate just as much if the ball settles above the FT line extended, though, as post players tend to set up on that side. It's just not a line that means a whole lot to me.

It was just a reference point to help the newbie who asked for laymen's terms. While you have a great feel for when to rotate, he doesn't.

BktBallRef Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:58am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BktBallRef (Post 920838)
It was just a reference point to help the newbie who asked for laymen's terms. While you have a great feel for when to rotate, he doesn't.

And as I said, others of us aren't that fortunate. Therefore, it's important to talk about things during pregame. That may be rotations, switches or any of a number of other things. Not all of us are so big time that we can afford to do nothing but say "Don't **** up," which by the way, doesn't accomplish a thing.

johnny d Sat Feb 01, 2014 01:17am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BktBallRef (Post 920839)
And as I said, others of us aren't that fortunate. Therefore, it's important to talk about things during pregame. That may be rotations, switches or any of a number of other things. Not all of us are so big time that we can afford to do nothing but say "Don't **** up," which by the way, doesn't accomplish a thing.


Do you really think that the 1-2 minutes you might spend discussing each of these topics (rotations, switches, and other very basic things) is going to make a difference in an officials performance in the game that night? If the guy really needs to discuss things that basic, you are in for a lot bigger problems than whether or not they catch all the rotations. Are there things that could be useful to talk about in a pregame, sure, but going into this level of basics is a waste of time and doesn't accomplish anything either.

JRutledge Sat Feb 01, 2014 01:23am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BktBallRef (Post 920839)
And as I said, others of us aren't that fortunate. Therefore, it's important to talk about things during pregame. That may be rotations, switches or any of a number of other things. Not all of us are so big time that we can afford to do nothing but say "Don't **** up," which by the way, doesn't accomplish a thing.

I do not think I have ever talked about rotations in years. The only way I can think of that topic comes up is when an official is brand new to the varsity level. But talking about switches or rotations almost never comes up.

My pre-games are more about the players, the teams and coaches that we will be dealing with. I might talk about a couple of philosophy things, but that is about it.

Peace

AremRed Sat Feb 01, 2014 01:27am

If the OP is still looking for advice, I haven't seen this posted yet:

Take a look at the defense. You will probably not rotate as much with a zone defense, because the offense will probably swing the ball from wing to wing. Under man-to-man defense I would suggest rotating whenever the ball moves to the other side of the lane, even above FTLE.


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