Iowa State/Kansas (Clip Added)

[BryanV21]

I understand I'm in the minority, but this is how I see it...

The player moving with the ball (the dribbler) changed direction to avoid contact once the defender gained LGP in the middle of the free throw line. Then, after the dribbler started to go around the defender (at the elbow), the defender's movement was not "lateral" or "oblique". Instead, the movement was directly sideways into the path already started into by the dribbler.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

I understand I'm in the minority, but this is how I see it...

The player moving with the ball (the dribbler) changed direction to avoid contact once the defender gained LGP in the middle of the free throw line. Then, after the dribbler started to go around the defender (at the elbow), the defender's movement was not "lateral" or "oblique". Instead, the movement was directly sideways into the path already started into by the dribbler.

I think you misunderstand how the concept of obliquely / laterally / forward are applied here.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

I understand I'm in the minority, but this is how I see it...

The player moving with the ball (the dribbler) changed direction to avoid contact once the defender gained LGP in the middle of the free throw line. Then, after the dribbler started to go around the defender (at the elbow), the defender's movement was not "lateral" or "oblique". Instead, the movement was directly sideways into the path already started into by the dribbler.

What you described is the definition of lateral.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by Rich

What you described is the definition of lateral.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Can you please explain what you think is different about the 2 bolded phrases?

"Lateral" movement (in terms of the rule) is related to the movement of the dribbler. The rule book doesn't stop at "the guard may move laterally or obliquely", but continues by saying "...to maintain position".

In this case, the defender did not "maintain position", as his movement sideways caused him to be closer to the dribbler than he originally was when he gained LGP.

So again... what did the dribbler do wrong? He tried going around the defender after the defender had gained LGP, as the book states he must do.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

"Lateral" movement (in terms of the rule) is related to the movement of the dribbler. The rule book doesn't stop at "the guard may move laterally or obliquely", but continues by saying "...to maintain position".

In this case, the defender did not "maintain position", as his movement sideways caused him to be closer to the dribbler than he originally was when he gained LGP.

So again... what did the dribbler do wrong? He tried going around the defender after the defender had gained LGP, as the book states he must do.

So basically you are looking at this as the defender moved sideways, the dribbler was getting closer to the defender, so therefore the defender did something wrong by not maintaining the same distance between himself and the dribbler?

Am I reading your comments correctly?

If so, you are really wrong...if not, then your attempts to explain your thinking are not coming through very clearly.

[BryanV21]

I guess I'm wrong. The guy in the video that made the "bad" call could very well have been me. It bothers me that I don't see things like everybody else here, as many of you are well-respected, but I'm not going to lie just to fit in.

With more experience perhaps I'll see this play, and others like it, differently.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

I guess I'm wrong. The guy in the video that made the "bad" call could very well have been me. It bothers me that I don't see things like everybody else here, as many of you are well-respected, but I'm not going to lie just to fit in.

With more experience perhaps I'll see this play, and others like it, differently.

Everyone gets calls wrong on the court, even the big dawgs. But I can pretty much gaurantee you that when Higgins watches the video of this game, he will mark himself down for this play.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

"Lateral" movement (in terms of the rule) is related to the movement of the dribbler. The rule book doesn't stop at "the guard may move laterally or obliquely", but continues by saying "...to maintain position".

In this case, the defender did not "maintain position", as his movement sideways caused him to be closer to the dribbler than he originally was when he gained LGP.

So again... what did the dribbler do wrong? He tried going around the defender after the defender had gained LGP, as the book states he must do.

The player with the ball closed the distance. The defender does NOT have to give ground and keep the distance the same during the entire play. He established LGP and moved laterally -- the player with the ball moved into the defender.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

In this case, the defender did not "maintain position", as his movement sideways caused him to be closer to the dribbler than he originally was when he gained LGP.

So what if he is closer to the dribbler than he was when he obtained LGP. The dribbler caused them to be closer by moving forwards. The defender moved lateral/sideways and maintained his LGP, he did not move forward or towards the dribbler. Therefore, the onus is on the offensive player to avoid contact. You are not just in the minority on this point, you are the single official incapable of understanding this concept.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

"Lateral" movement (in terms of the rule) is related to the movement of the dribbler. The rule book doesn't stop at "the guard may move laterally or obliquely", but continues by saying "...to maintain position".

In this case, the defender did not "maintain position", as his movement sideways caused him to be closer to the dribbler than he originally was when he gained LGP.

So again... what did the dribbler do wrong? He tried going around the defender after the defender had gained LGP, as the book states he must do.

That's where the "gets head and shoulders past the defense" come in.

if the defense is so late to move that even a lateral move causes contact on the offense's side, then it's a block. But even if the move makes the distance shorter, if the defense gets there first, it's a charge.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

So again... what did the dribbler do wrong? He tried going around the defender after the defender had gained LGP, as the book states he must do.

What he did wrong is run over a defender who was in LGP. The book doesn't say he has to try to avoid contact with the defender that has LGP, it says he must avoid contact with the defender that has LGP or he is responsible for the resulting contact.

Next you will tell us a foul should not be called on a defensive player that hits a shooter on the arm if said defender was trying to avoid hitting the offensive player on the arm.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

"Lateral" movement (in terms of the rule) is related to the movement of the dribbler. The rule book doesn't stop at "the guard may move laterally or obliquely", but continues by saying "...to maintain position".

In this case, the defender did not "maintain position", as his movement sideways caused him to be closer to the dribbler than he originally was when he gained LGP.

So again... what did the dribbler do wrong? He tried going around the defender after the defender had gained LGP, as the book states he must do.

The defensive player moved laterally (and actually back one step), the offensive player moved towards him.

It's one thing to disagree on judgment. It's quite another to tell a bunch of veteran officials that they don't know what the definition of maintaining a LGP is.

If you want to be Don Quixote', fine. But Don Quixotes don't fare very well in camps or with supervisors.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

The defensive player moved laterally (and actually back one step), the offensive player moved towards him.

It one thing to disagree on judgment. It's quite another to tell a bunch of veteran officials that they don't know what the definition of maintaining a LGP is.

If you want to be Don Quixote', fine. But Don Quixotes don't fare very well in camps or with supervisors.

Possibly the first Don Quixote reference on this forum. Nice

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by johnny d

Possibly the first Don Quixote reference on this forum. Nice

I believe one of our esteemed moderators has an avatar for that.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I believe one of our esteemed moderators has an avatar for that.

I don't pay all that much attention to the avatars or the quotes and titles people use here other than what they say in their actual posts.