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What you guys Think of this? (Video)
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I think the person who put the video together and the announcers should all be thanked for being fans of HS basketball.
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Huh?
Don't exactly have to do a "Rodin" on this one. Not sure what "thinking" needs to be done. Pretty straightforward, merited intentional foul, especially given this year's POE on the topic.
Irrelevant is the intro regarding some "streak" or the other. |
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That said, it's a common foul 100 times out of 100. |
I don't believe I have ever called such a play/contact as an intentional foul. That, to me, looks like a strategic common foul.
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A case can be made for just a common foul and an intentional. It didn't look all that intentional to me and the offensive player embellished a bit at the end. This would (unless it's been done already) rises to the level of contact that after the foul to remind the players to make sure their fouls are basketball related plays.
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Hugging the dribbler? Easy intentional. Go for the steal.
BTW.... "Truckers"? |
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The sad part is that a T followed this "incorrect" call. Not excusing the coaches or players (whoever got the T) behavior, but it shows how one call has the ability to change things very drastically. Most likely the T was very well deserved, but the times I have had an intentional foul I have not paused, looked at the player and then made the intentional signal. I have made the intentional signal as soon as my whistle was blown.
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Common foul.
He can make a play on the ball with one hand or both from both sides of the body if he wishes. Will one be a foul definitely but that is risk/reason he is willing to make the play. There is embellishment. I can't see who/why it gets a T. The reaction makes me think someone let something slip that is basically automatic. |
Might part of whether this is intentional or common depend on whether Blue had been "trying to foul" before this?
I'm sure it does vary by area as well. |
The whole game is here....
go to 1:02.10 to see another intentional foul on the throw-in after the first one... Boys' Basketball Lorain vs. Norwalk 1-11-14 - YouTube <iframe width="853" height="480" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/keI21RdnOJ8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> |
I've got a common foul, but I'd hardly say calling it intentional qualifies it as a "horrible" call.
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While certainly a suspect intentional foul, it did not "hand" the game to the home team.
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The foul wasn't excessive contact and while it may have been designed to stop the clock, he was actually poking at the ball....which keeps it common. |
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Interestingly enough, the very next play is another intentional foul called with the same two participants involved. Play starts at 1:02:40.
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What gets lost in all this is that so many people consider every bad call (which I agree this was) to be a conspiracy. He made a call against us. He obviously is cheating so we would lose. end of story. Who knows? This guy may make bad calls every night.
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Anyone notice where he put the ball in play after the second intentional? And if the first intentional foul was in fact intentional, then why wasn't the foul after the second intentional also an intentional foul?
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Argue whether or not it was an IF all day. But #3 in blue earned his T. To turn around and say that the official gave the other team free throws is just wrong. For the record, I would not have had an IF on that play either. But if a partner did, so be it. |
Cheaters ???
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Maybe the intentional foul was the wrong call. Maybe it was the correct call. No official that I've worked with over the past thirty-three years would cheat to keep a streak alive. Such officials might exist, but I've never met one. |
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Could have been only down 4 with 24 seconds remaining had someone not popped off... Then a stupid intentional foul on the throw-in sealed it. Poor decision by the T, but he didn't hand them the game. |
Of Course, I've Never Worked With Tim Donaghy ...
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I've had partners that I've considered to have made bad calls, but I've never worked with anyone who made a series of bad calls in a game that favored one team, or the other. Also, I've never worked with a partner who made what I may have considered to be a bad call to end a close game. I've never even heard rumors about officials cheating. I've worked thousands of game, and I've never cared one way, or the other, who won those games. I trust that my partners have had similar attitudes. But, maybe I'm looking at the world through rose colored glasses. I've been known to do that. |
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Bad/incorrect calls are made all the time. And the plain fact is that several officials on this forum agreed with the IF call. So we can't even all agree that this was a bad call. That player is responsible for his actions. He earned that T. You threw a fellow official under the bus, saying he "gave" them four free throws. Feeds right into the perception that some people have that we all cheat. Again, argue the correctness of a call, but don't say the official was cheating ( and yes, that is what you were saying). |
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The home team ended up winning by 3. First T, kid that fouled out said "Open your eyes" Second T, after I called a foul 80 feet away from the basket the kid that fouled yelled "No" and slammed the ball (granted he caught the ball so it didn't go over his head, but that didn't matter). Right after that the same team's AC was close to a T, I just looked at the HC and told him "He's about to cost you 2 FT's and the ball". Did I give that game away? Nope, each kid earned their T, and I would have the same outcome 100% of the time. |
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IF was whistled in White's BC. |
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Depends on how you define several...
Count me in with those who have an intentional foul to go along with the T. By rule, if the player is not making a play on the ball it is an intentional foul. I see the defender grab the dribbler from behind with both hands almost in the fashion of a bear hug. I see no problem with how it was called and probably would have called it the same if I were there. Also note, that the opposing coach stood up immediately calling for the flagrant so others saw it that way when it happened as well (I know several of you will want to blast that statement with some comment about coaches dictating calls but I am ony including it to demonstrate that it was seen that way by him). And, any T that resulted is to be blamed on the player. It does not matter why he disagrees with the call or how bad a call may be a player should never comment or demonstrate in an unsporting manner.
Finally, for any of us to question the honesty and credibility of other officials is unprofessional and counter productive. I don't know one guy nor have I heard of one game from my area where an official cheated. As they like to say in grade school, when you point a finger at someone there are four pointing back at you. I hope in the future some of you more regular posters can stop trying so hard to find fault with others and stick to discusing / debating rules and situations. I enjoy coming to the forum to learn from each of you but find it hard to wade through the constant negativity of some posters. |
Rich, I think you've misread the posts. No one here (that I recall) has suggested these officials lacked integrity. Quite the opposite, in fact.
I'm not going to blast you for noting the coach's response, I'm only going to say it doesn't matter. Half the head coaches think all fouls in the last minute are intentional. I think the kid was going for the ball, he just went through the offensive player to get to it. Like I said before, though, this probably wasn't even the worst call of the game. |
Adam,
There were a few hints at it here but I was also referencing past threads as well. It seems that often times we get caught up in criticizing the official (about things that don't impact the actual call) instead of concentrating on the situation or rule. And, I know that my soap box rantings really only apply to 5 or 6 of the regulars. Most posters here are positive and I enjoy the academic discussions from which I can learn or see things from different perspectives. |
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I never said or implied anything questing the integrity or honesty of the official....just that his poor call selection had a greater impact than the call itself. An as far as how many here are agreeing with the IF, it is a very small number....I think I only saw 1 or 2. They player's hand was reaching right at the ball. He doesn't have to be successful at getting the ball for it to be common. We also tend to automatically support other officials who call T's, sometimes without objectively considering the situation. |
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Common foul. But the T was deserved I'm sure. Too bad he upgraded the foul to an INT though.
Having said that, I would definitely talk to B1 because I do think he unnecessarily contacted A1. I do see the bear hug and the arm hook was a poor attempt to play the ball, imho. And I say this even as A1 embellished. I may speak to him too. :) |
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Rich1: I am piggy backing onto your post because your first paragraph describes pretty accurately why B1's Personal Foul could be seen as an Intentional PF. And to be honest, we are watching the video on a small screen and not at quite the angle that the T saw it in real time and in full size. This game was a non-league game for both schools. Lorain H.S. is in the Lake Erie League in the OhioHSAA's Northeast District, and Norwalk H.S. is in the Northern Ohio League in the the OhioHSAA's Northwest District. I do not know any of the officials in the game and this is the first time I have seen either of them. As far as the Northern Ohio League is concerned I do not know if these officials were assigned by the league commissioner or by the Norwalk H.S. athletic director. The vast majority of leagues in Ohio only assign their member schools' league games and the member schools' then assign their own officials for their home non-league games. And whether this is the case in the NOL or not, in the vast majority of leagues the only way that an official can get league assignments from commissioners is if they have been recommended by at least one coach in the league: no recommendation by a coach, means a commissioner cannot assign him games in that league. Welcome to Ohio (and Michigan for that matter too). MTD, Sr. |
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That being said I can live with an IF on the first play but I wouldn't have been shocked if it had been called a common foul. The second one...eh. I thought the ball handler was off balance but given what had just been called so be it. As for the T, we can't hear what was said but good, bad or indifferent call we all know there are certain things that are automatic. I'd have to think the last thing the official wanted to do was ring someone up after the IF but it is what it is. Oh...to the folks who posted the vids, when you embed a YouTube clip you can set it to start at a certain point. That way some of us on very slow work computers don't have to wait for the video to buffer ;) |
For the officials who think the "bear hug" motion by the defender could warrant an intentional. If the defender, is behind/ on the backside of the offensive player and can't swipe or chop at the ball. If he also wants to reach to get the ball and is willing/instructed to risk taking foul. Do you feel he can't reach for the ball around the body with both hands to assure he gets to make a play on the ball regardless of which hand it ends up in?
If he was in front and reached with both I wouldn't see if being a problem. Why if the offensive player chooses to put his body between the player and the ball does this stop being a play on the basketball. Just curious unless there is excessive contact or absolutely no play on the ball at all we wouldn't go intentional around these here parts. So long as the player is reaching for the ball and contact is not excessive we've got a common foul. |
Its all been said at this point, but my reaction was that was a common foul. He's making enough of a play on the ball for me and the contact wasn't excessive. And unless the HC called him a c**ksucker at full volume, I think you need to lay off the T.
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Reaching around a ballhandler with one hand is generally a play on the ball. What does one hope to accomplish with using both arms, especially in that scenario? If you're very lucky and have Gumbyesque arms, you might get a held ball out of the deal, but how often do we see steals from behind using both arms? From my viewpoint, if the defender in the OP's video solely had used his left arm, it would be a common foul, and he possibly (although not likely) could have stolen the ball. As others have pointed out, the reason the IF rule was put into place was to prevent these late fouls to stop the clock. If you're going to foul, fine, but make a play on the ball. I had a very strange IPF last week: A1 gets a defensive rebound, and while he started dribbling back the other way, B2 reaches around A1's waist and pulls him back, as if A1 were a running back breaking away. It wasn't particularly malicious, just a matter-of-fact hug from behind. What made this excessively strange is Team B was AHEAD 7 points with 2:30ish to go. I had to double-check the scoreboard to make sure I had the right team in the lead. I did. Still baffled. |
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The two knobs in the booth are priceless!
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In my opinion, this is an official who is "looking" for an excuse to call an intentional foul. I don't think officials should be looking to call intentional fouls (only exception would be elbow in motion making contact above the shoulders since a common foul is not an option). Given how bad this call was (again, my opinion), I have no doubt that something was said that made the T and easy call. |
similiar to the 0.2 seconds left play, these men should be flogged in public and never allowed to work a HS game again :rolleyes:
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Just my opinion:
If there's an intentional foul here in this situation, especially when it's evident that the losing team is fouling on purpose, then the call has to be obvious. It has to be obvious enough that you don't have 19 (or whatever the count) officials saying it's a common foul to only 2-3 in favor for it. Quote:
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Bainsey: An update to this thread.
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Bainsey: You asked: "Truckers"? Yesterday, Norwalk H.S. finished their season (29-1) by defeating defending champion Columbus Watterson H.S. (26-3), 65-58, for the OhioHSAA Division II Boys' State Championship. MTD, Sr. |
I was watching the end of a girls state tournament game this weekend and a team that was behind needed to foul stop the clock.
Defender reached out and tapped the ball-handler on the back with one hand. A foul was called. Properly, in my opinion. Nobody thought twice about the call. To me, there's an unwritten contract in these situations. Team wants to foul, call that foul the first time they try for it and make contact. Nobody wins when you demand to excess that it be a "good" foul - contact that would be proper to pass on earlier in the game is not proper to pass on in this situation. And that foul's not intentional unless the person doing it is truly stupid and forces the official into making that call. |
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Count me on the list as this did not deserve an intentional foul. And, for Bainsey, who said something about this being in the rule book, to prevent fouling at the end of the game, it's also in the rule book/case book, that fouling at the end of the game is an accepted strategy (or something similar). At least it was a few years ago. |
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Common foul on the first. The T is warranted. The 2nd Int I could go either way on.
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My two cents
Not sure I would have called the I.F., but I can see why it was called. Put together the P.O.E. along with the kinda hug, and in my mind, the case for the I.F. can be made.
As a guy who also does play-by-play for the local high school team on the radio, I am embarrassed by the two clowns on the air. Nothing wrong with being supportive of the team you are covering ... but these bozos are way, way over the top. |
It looks like he basically hugged the ball handler. But that would be helped by a better angle. Otherwise I am just going to with a regular common foul. I would not care how the player acted while being fouled to determine what type of foul was called.
It is certainly not a "horrible call" as suggested. Might not be a great call, but not horrible. Peace |
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Excessive Contact ...
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https://yahoov4s2-a.akamaihd.net/sk/...02b33417_m.jpg |
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As we all know, fouling at the end of the game is an accepted strategy. Officials should be aware of the time, score, and situation. There is NOTHING here that comes close to intentional. I think the calling official reacted to the kid who as APG said realized he was close to the division line as he jumped then just sort of flopped to get a call. There was absolutely no push whatsoever to cause him to go flying like that and the bear hug talk is ridiculous and silly IMO. |
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The opposing coach does not stand up to immediately signal anything. Two coaches appear to already be standing and signal for an intentional after the player goes on a self induced flight through the air and just about the same time as the official is crossing his arms. And you should expect to be blasted for this comment b/c it's silly. Of course the coach up by 2 at the end of the game wants an intentional. On more than one occasion I've had coaches ask for intentional on late stop the clock fouls and when I've said, "Coach, that wasnt even close" they've responded, "I know but I thought I'd try...." Again, nobody here is questioning the integrity of these officials. I just feel very strongly that judging that play to be intentional is horrific end of game officiating. Absolutely horrific. And I'm surprised that there are even a handful of people here who don't see this as the case. |
Fun With Words ...
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4-19-3-D: An intentional foul is a personal or technical foul that may or may not be premeditated and is not based solely on the severity of the act. Intentional fouls include, but are not limited to: Excessive contact with an opponent while playing the ball. If I were JugglingReferee, I would not describe this play using the words "excessive contact" (better: "illegal contact"), unless he was planning on calling an intentional foul (which I don't believe that he was planning on doing). There are a few coaches, just a few, who actually read, and understand the rulebook. "Hey Mr. JugglingReferee? You said that there was excessive contact but you're not calling a intentional foul? What about 4-19-3-D, that you can see right here in my handy pocket size rulebook? Need your reading glasses? What? Why would you call a technical foul on me for just sticking a page of the rulebook in your face? I haven't gotten a technical foul in over forty years. You're damn right I'm yelling. What? Another one? What? I don't even know where the bus is parked." |
The second foul, on the throw-in after the first one, is definitely intentional. The first one, not so much.
As a side note, it completely irks me that the official waits like 3-4 seconds before signaling anything. That’s part of his problem imo because it makes it look like he is still deciding what to call (whether or not that may truly be the case). Call a regular foul on the first one and you don’t have any of this other nonsense. |
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