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-   -   It's Academic ... (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/97071-its-academic.html)

BillyMac Sun Jan 19, 2014 04:23pm

It's Academic ...
 
This post is about a test question situation, but it really happened in my game today, so I'd like some advice. Also, it's a "Fashion Police" question, so if you don't like "Fashion Police" test questions, then please move on, because there's nothing to see here.

Let me also note that this occurred in a Catholic middle school "junior varsity" game, involving fifth, and sixth, graders. My assigner wants all "Fashion Police" rules (headbands, wristbands, undershirts, etc.) enforced in this league, and has threatened not to pay us if we don't enforce said rules (probably an idle threat, but I don't want to be the first test case).

First half. A1 is wearing a blue (team color) headband. No one else on her team is wearing a headband. Second half. A1 is still wearing her blue headband, but now A2 is wearing a white headband. As A2 steps onto the court for the start of the second half, I stop her, and inform her that she can't wear her white headband because everyone on her team must have the same color headband, and that A1 is already wearing a blue headband. A2 asks A1 to remove her blue headband, but before A1 removes it, I followup and say (off the top off my head) to A2, "No, you can't switch headband colors in the middle of the game". So A2 removed her white headband and we played on.

Comments, from interested Forum members, please.

johnny d Sun Jan 19, 2014 04:55pm

Fashion rules are stupid. I think you are wrong. I don't see anything in the rules that prevent a team from changing the color of the headbands they are wearing.

wyo96 Sun Jan 19, 2014 04:56pm

I don't like policing, but ....
 
I don't think there is any rule support for your statement. As long as every player on a team complies, I think they can swith back and forth as much as they want. Just send them off/ don't let them in if they don't follow the rules.

bainsey Sun Jan 19, 2014 05:12pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 919156)
My assigner wants all "Fashion Police" rules (headbands, wristbands, undershirts, etc.) enforced in this league, and has threatened not to pay us if we don't enforce said rules (probably an idle threat, but I don't want to be the first test case).

I'd question the legality of such follow-through. Removing or cutting down on assignments is one thing; not paying for what you worked is quite another.

As for the play, I'd go right to the HC and say, "choose one." I doubt it matters which one was first, but I'd go to the local interpreter on that one.

OKREF Sun Jan 19, 2014 05:14pm

They have to be the same color. Blue or white. Who cares what they started with.

bob jenkins Sun Jan 19, 2014 06:14pm

OOO.

Not surprising.

JetMetFan Sun Jan 19, 2014 06:40pm

Let 'em switch, regardless of the level of the game.

NFHS 3-5-4a states "Headbands and wristbands shall be white, black, beige or a single solid school color and shall be the same color for each item and all participants." As was mentioned, there's nothing in the rule about changing colors midstream. As long as they all conform to the change it should be fine.

BillyMac Sun Jan 19, 2014 07:14pm

Stepped Right In It ...
 
That will teach me to interpret something ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 919156)
... off the top off my head


Nevadaref Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:08pm

I'd allow the team to switch colors because there is no rule against it.

Let me push the issue further. Visiting team is wearing blue jerseys. They play poorly during the first half and in order to change their luck they decide to switch to red jerseys for the 2nd half.

Any rule prohibiting the entire team from changing? All numbers match the previous jerseys.

JugglingReferee Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:56pm

Let them change once for the reasons cited by others.

If they want to switch back, deny it based on the issue that now the doors are open to change multiple times per game, which I'm certain the Fed doesn't want to have happen. It's just not part of basketball.

Nevadaref Mon Jan 20, 2014 01:00am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee (Post 919196)
Let them change once for the reasons cited by others.

If they want to switch back, deny it based on the issue that now the doors are open to change multiple times per game, which I'm certain the Fed doesn't want to have happen. It's just not part of basketball.

That doesn't make sense. You can't arbitrarily decide that they may change only once when that isn't in the book. Either they can change colors because they rules allow it or they can't because the rules prohibit it.

BillyMac Mon Jan 20, 2014 07:05am

Food For Thought ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 919193)
Visiting team is wearing blue jerseys. They play poorly during the first half and in order to change their luck they decide to switch to red jerseys for the 2nd half.

Good example. Even the numbers can be changed after reporting the change to the scorer, and an official.

If the numbers can be changed, then why not the color of jerseys, headbands, wristbands, etc.

Lotto Mon Jan 20, 2014 08:41am

A pedantic reply
 
The rule doesn't mention timing, just that "the same color must be worn by teammates." So if A1 wears a blue headband in the first half and A2 wears a white headband in the second half, then we have teammates that are wearing different colored headbands, and so are in violation of the rule. Does that fly?

bob jenkins Mon Jan 20, 2014 08:50am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lotto (Post 919222)
The rule doesn't mention timing, just that "the same color must be worn by teammates." So if A1 wears a blue headband in the first half and A2 wears a white headband in the second half, then we have teammates that are wearing different colored headbands, and so are in violation of the rule. Does that fly?

In the 2012-2013 book, the rule states "participants" not "teammates."

I view "participants" as being the equivalent of "players."

Lotto Mon Jan 20, 2014 09:05am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 919224)
In the 2012-2013 book, the rule states "participants" not "teammates."

I view "participants" as being the equivalent of "players."

I was quoting the NCAAW book, since that's what we use here in NYS for girl's basketball.

Is there a definition of "participant" in the NFHS rulebook?

bob jenkins Mon Jan 20, 2014 09:08am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lotto (Post 919226)
I was quoting the NCAAW book, since that's what we use here in NYS for girl's basketball.

Is there a definition of "participant" in the NFHS rulebook?

"Participant" is not defined , but there are several cases where a team member has illegal equipment (e.g., jewelry) and the ruling is to the effect of "there is no T; A1 simply cannot participate until the illegal item is removed."

BillyMac Mon Jan 20, 2014 04:03pm

Always Listen To ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jerkins (Post 919224)
I view "participants" as being the equivalent of "players."

I may be wrong, but I don't agree with bob jenkins, in regard to the statement above, at this point in the thread, although I reserve the right to change my mind after some future postings. That would mean that only the five players "participating" must have legal equipment. The kids on the bench could have illegal undershirts, illegal jewelry, illegal headbands, etc. and they only have to "made" legal when they report to the table as a substitute. Since there are no players during the pregame layup lines, then everyone could conceivably be wearing illegal equipment.

I know that I'm on thin ice here, i.e., disagreeing with bob jenkins, but, like I said, I can be easily convinced that bob jenkins is correct.

Nevadaref Mon Jan 20, 2014 05:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 919300)
I may be wrong, but I don't agree with bob jenkins, in regard to the statement above, at this point in the thread, although I reserve the right to change my mind after some future postings. That would mean that only the five players "participating" must have legal equipment. The kids on the bench could have illegal undershirts, illegal jewelry, illegal headbands, etc. and they only have to "made" legal when they report to the table as a substitute. Since there are no players during the pregame layup lines, then everyone could conceivably be wearing illegal equipment.

I know that I'm on thin ice here, i.e., disagreeing with bob jenkins, but, like I said, I can be easily convinced that bob jenkins is correct.

When on the court the team members must be legally equipped and that pertains to warm-ups as well per a Case Book play. However, Bob is right that a team member who just sits on the bench the whole game doesn't have to comply. For example, he/she could wear earrings and not participate.

Adam Mon Jan 20, 2014 06:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 919201)
That doesn't make sense. You can't arbitrarily decide that they may change only once when that isn't in the book. Either they can change colors because they rules allow it or they can't because the rules prohibit it.

Agreed. I don't see any rules against it.

Now, they'd all have to change at the same time, and the team isn't going to be allowed to go to the lockerroom once the 2nd half starts anyway.

Adam Mon Jan 20, 2014 06:03pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 919216)
Good example. Even the numbers can be changed after reporting the change to the scorer, and an official.

Not without a T or an approved reason (blood, etc).

Adam Mon Jan 20, 2014 06:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 919193)
I'd allow the team to switch colors because there is no rule against it.

Let me push the issue further. Visiting team is wearing blue jerseys. They play poorly during the first half and in order to change their luck they decide to switch to red jerseys for the 2nd half.

Any rule prohibiting the entire team from changing? All numbers match the previous jerseys.

Let me add this wrinkle:
V has two distinct sets of players that play together. A1-A7 all wear red jerseys. A8-A15 all wear blue jerseys. Red only plays with red teammates, and the same with blue.

Allowed?

BillyMac Mon Jan 20, 2014 07:04pm

Partial Victory ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 919325)
When on the court the team members must be legally equipped and that pertains to warm-ups as well per a Case Book play. However, Bob is right that a team member who just sits on the bench the whole game doesn't have to comply. For example, he/she could wear earrings and not participate.

Well, at least I was right about the layup lines.

It's true, always listen to bob.

Camron Rust Mon Jan 20, 2014 07:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 919330)
Let me add this wrinkle:
V has two distinct sets of players that play together. A1-A7 all wear red jerseys. A8-A15 all wear blue jerseys. Red only plays with red teammates, and the same with blue.

Allowed?

I'm not....at least at V or higher. MS or rec level, sure, just about anything goes as long as we can easily tell the two teams on the floor apart.

Nevadaref Mon Jan 20, 2014 07:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 919330)
Let me add this wrinkle:
V has two distinct sets of players that play together. A1-A7 all wear red jerseys. A8-A15 all wear blue jerseys. Red only plays with red teammates, and the same with blue.

Allowed?

No, per 3-4-1a.

BillyMac Mon Jan 20, 2014 07:43pm

Let's Go To The Videotape ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 919343)
No, per 3-4-1a.

Team jersey color and design shall adhere to the following: The torso of the team jersey shall be the same single solid color for all team members.

Adam Mon Jan 20, 2014 07:52pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 919343)
No, per 3-4-1a.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 919351)
Team jersey color and design shall adhere to the following: The torso of the team jersey shall be the same single solid color for all team members.

Thanks, couldn't remember if it was "Players" or "team members."


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