T or Intentional?
 

VB 3 man crew. H1 shots the ball and makes it. During the rebounding actions H2 and V1 get there arms tangled up. I am the C. I hear the new trail tell them "let go." V1 drops his arms and H2 two hand shoves V1. I gave H2 a technical as the ball was rolling on the floor under the basket. This is correct I believe as the ball was dead still.

Confession: I did not take into account the status of the ball when I seen it. I just instinctively called the T. Then I started thinking it should have been intentional as it was during play. However thinking back I am almost certain V had not picked up the ball yet and I know for a fact T had not started a count as he was watching the rebounders. Long story short, I think I got lucky.

And when you checked the rulebook, was your luck confirmed?

It sounds like it was both intentional and T. ;)

(those aren't exclusive terms.)

Pretty much.

I would have given H1 a technical for shooting the ball. :D

Did your new trail have a whistle? Sounds like he had this whole play the whole way.

Some of the responses thus far have been sarcastic/vague ...

Can someone confirm that the correct call in this situation is a Technical Foul (because the ball was was dead after a made basket but before it was at the thrower's disposal).

On a side note, I find the "what did the rule book say" type responses very unhelpful. I don't always have my rule book with me 24x7 to look things up.

The question comes down to when the ball becomes dead, and when it comes live again. The OP had it correct (perhaps by luck).

The ball becomes dead when the ball goes through the basket, and it becomes live again when the new T starts his 5 second count.

And for the record, Bob's answer was neither vague nor sarcastic. It also had the bonus property of adding more information.

Thank you ... and I was not necessarily refering to Bob in this case. This time it was BadNewRef (but honestly it's something that I notice with lots of posts and was not intended to be pointed at any one person)

Didn't I answer this a few mintues ago? Maybe I forgot to hit "post".

In any event, it's an Intentional Technical foul.

It's not an Intentional Personal foul.

And, there's always a tension between "teaching a man to fish" and "giving a man a fish."

jeremy already answered the question. And since this happened in his game, he had time to look it up at some point afterwards. I don't see why I need to give the rulebook reference if I know he is going to look it up. I already know the correct answer, but I might not have assess to the rulebook at that moment either, so how am I going to give a reference?

Had a play similar to this during a game two weeks ago. I was new lead, and had the call. I went up with a closed fist, but didn't indicate anything else. Went to my partner, who also saw the play...after conferring, we went with intentional.

To the OP, (and the board) the play, as described by the OP, is that the kind of play that you could go with a closed fist, then get with your partners? Or do you feel that a call needs to be made right away?

You can definitely get together. Some would say it's preferable (depending on the situation).

My partners had this play last week. I was the Trail and not involved in the play. Lead went up closed fist with the intent of going FF1, but conferred with the C first, then came out with the crossed arms. He then came to me to make sure I knew what was going on. Great communication on his part from beginning to end.

So if the shot from the OP would have missed and stayed in play and the action played out the same the correct call would have been an intentional foul, with a determination needing to be made of whether the contact was flagrant (player ejection)? But really, whether you call technical or intentional its just semantics because the penalty is the same in this case? Both count towards team fouls, both result in two shots plus ball. Am I missing something?

Who shoots the free throws and where you put the ball back in play.

Yes, you are missing a lot of somethings.

Ahh, there it is, thanks APG.
Thanks for your help too Johnny. :rolleyes:

OK. If you call a T, anyone can shoot the FTs that is available to play, whether in the game or on the bench and you put the ball always at the division line (unless you have a double T where POI is applied).

If you have an intentional foul that is not associated with a T that only would involve dead ball contact. That is why Bob said earlier these are not mutually exclusive. But if this is a live ball called intentional foul (and you cannot have a live ball T for contact) then the ball goes to the spot of the foul and only the offended player can shoot.

Maybe that helps?

Peace

Also, the player will be ejected from the game if they receive 2 technical fouls. In Illinois, a player that is ejected for getting 2 technical fouls has to sit the next game as well. They can commit 5 intentional personal fouls before they are forced to leave the game. Apparently the difference between personal fouls and technical fouls is a little more significant than semantics.

Yes, thanks. I understood from APG's response, but thanks for spelling it out. These are the types of discussions I like to hang around this board for, I'm relatively new to this, so thanks for humoring me.

Disagree, and even if it were it pays (imo) to use the correct terms amongst officials and with others -- it will help your understanding of the rules and the nuances involved.

(I am not saying to "correct" a coach if s/he uses the wrong term and we know what s/he meant).

Just a thought… How about a delay warning to avoid a Technical?

How do you get a DOG warning out of this? For NFHS, there are only 4 situations of which you can call a DOG warning.

I missed the "shove" in the original post. Gotta be a "T'.