You Decide (Clip)
 

You decide, PFC or Block for high school game?

11 - YouTube

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Block! --Here in Australia I'm calling that a block. She was not in legal guarding position first or squared up to a player. Plus, our directive says if in doubt reward the shooter!

Player Control Foul: NFHS, NCAA, and FIBA every time.

MTD, Sr.

Block

Block I think.

Defender did not establish LGP before contact ... block.

The R1 has most certainly obtained (NFHS)/established (NCAA and FIBA) a LGP against W1 and is moving to maintain it. The fact that R1 has turned to absorb the contact from the W1 does not matter. Nor does it matter that R1 is moving when contact occurred; when contact occurred R1 was not moving obliquely into A1 at the time of contact.

MTD, Sr.

In MTDS I trust.

R1 established LGP - two feet on the floor and the front of her torso facing her opponent - about :04 into the clip. W1 just happened to be about 20 feet away from her at the time.

Thank you. I will put the check in the afternoon mail. :D

MTD, Sr.

Block!!! B1 didn't turn away to absorb contact, B1 turned INTO A1 to create the contact.

Good one. I almost thought you were serious for a moment.

Disagree. IMO, the defender's torso is not facing the defender but rather facing the sideline. As such, defender the defender never got LGP.

I don't think she had LGP, but it isn't always required.

I agree, when the dribbler is at the foul line extended, the defender has both feet on the line with the blocks facing the sideline, not the dribbler. I have a block.

Pc
 

Player Control foul...W1 displaced and went thru torso of R1 while she had LGP...Agree with MTD

Agree.

Defender created the contact with her shoulder.

Block.

I definitely don't see the defender gaining LGP. And even if she did get LGP, she turns INTO the shooter. I thought this upon the first viewing, and after the fifth time I still believe it.

I would have a block in real time and I still have a block after watching it a few times. The defender never gets her feet on the floor facing the offensive player. At :04 in the clip she is facing the sideline with her right shoulder pointed at the dribbler, and she creates the contact with her shoulder as the offensive player gathers to shoot.

Using 4-23-3 as reference.

ART. 3

After the initial legal guarding position is obtained:

a. The guard may have one or both feet on the playing court or be airborne, provided he/she has inbound status.

b. The guard is not required to continue facing the opponent.

c. The guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, *provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs.

d. The guard may raise hands or jump within his/her own vertical plane.

e. The guard may turn or duck to absorb the shock of imminent contact.

Look at the 5 second mark...she has obtained LGP by definition. When contact is made she is moving obliquely to maintain postion and away from opponent. Then contact is made by offensive player and defensive player turns to absorb imminent contact.

This is player control by definition. It looks like a block foul but it is a Player Control.

That says "After LGP is obtained". I'm saying she never gained LGP. At the 5 second mark both of her feet and torso are facing those double doors on the other side of the basket in the corner of the gym, not the opponent.

Block, B does not establish LGP and turns her shoulder into shooter creating contact.

In the video I'm watching B1 moves her shoulder into A1, not away from.

I'm calling a charge here. It looks to me like the defender is moving towards the basket while maintaining position in the path of the dribbler. The dribbler just runs directly into her with no attempt at all to maneuver around.

more video
 

Because I can do this sort of thing...

Three more looks at the play.

*Full speed
*40% speed
*30% speed with freezes at the moments it appears B1 establishes LGP both before and after A1 has the ball.

Let the debate continue! Time for me to get some sleep before my game this afternoon.

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Block all the way! R1 was moving diagonally across the lane and INTO W1's path. She did not establish LGP before the contact so it has to be a block.

Don't forget the "in the path" component I learned recently. I don't see the defender in the path until a second or two before contact, and then she is not directly facing the dribbler. The defender is sidestepping the whole way. Additionally, I think I see a bit of forward contact right as the defender stops, which would negate any LGP if she did have it. Offensive player is under control the whole way, block.

Both times you freeze it I don't see the B1 in A1's path at all.

Pc

I interpret "in the path" rather loosely, I guess. The defender is easily between the dribbler and the basket. Would you really expect her to expose the basket to get into the precise path of the dribbler who is avoiding the defender at the moment?

Block, all day long.

When I look at those two freeze frame shots...in the first one the girl eventually charged for the PC does NOT yet have the ball, therefore no LGP...in the second freeze frame the girl in red is NOT facing the player with the ball is NOT, except in only the most liberal definition, between the dribbler and the basket.

IMO...block.

So you are saying that a defensive player can only obtain (NFHS)/establish (NCAA and FIBA) a LGP against an offensive player who is in control of the ball?


And where in the Rules Book does it say that in order to obtain/establish a LGP that the initial position be on a line between the dribbler and the dribbler's team's basket?

MTD, Sr.

I watched it twice.

IMO, just about the easiest block I'd call all night.

Facing the Dribbler?
 

Where does it say in 4-23 that you have to be directly facing the dribbler? It states that the torso must be facing to establish LGP but is not required to stay there.

Just some food for thought!!:confused:

I can understand the official in the game getting it wrong, we all have.

But how in the hell can anybody watch this clip in 3 different speeds and still say this is a PC foul? :confused::eek:

Because by definition it is a PC and not a block again another reference (4-7) and tell my how the "heck" someone can watch it three times and not call it a PC

ART. 2

Charging is illegal personal contact caused by pushing or moving into an opponent's torso.

a. A player who is moving with the ball is required to stop or change direction to avoid contact if a defensive player has obtained a legal guarding position in his/her path.

b. If a guard has obtained a legal guarding position, the player with the ball must get his/her head and shoulders past the torso of the defensive player. If contact occurs on the torso of the defensive player, the dribbler is responsible for the contact.

c. There must be reasonable space between two defensive players or a defensive player and a boundary line to allow the dribbler to continue in his/her path. If there is less than 3 feet of space, the dribbler has the greater responsibility for the contact.

d. The player with the ball may not push the torso of the guard to gain an advantage to pass, shoot or dribble.

Never had LGP in the first place, then B1 turns her right shoulder INTO A1 at point of contact.

It appears as though the differing views hinge on whether the defender was ever in the path of the dribbler. From the camera angle, I don't see where the defender ever was.

Now I know a player control foul doesn't require contact directly in the torso, but you highlight this portion when the contact is shoulder to shoulder. You should have highlighted A if you were trying to make your point.

Yes I do highlight it because she was in the path and the offensive player would have hit her in the torso had she not moved from the imminent contact which is legal.

I believe from my angle she is in LGP. She is in the path of the offensive player. It would be better if we were in the same position as the Lead in the video because I believe that is why he called PC.

It looks like a block in real time but I believe by definition and viewing "3" times or more that it is PC.

If you pause the video when contact is made, the defensive player is moving backward or in the same direction as the offensive player. The offensive player is not displaced and does not have her head and shoulders past the torso of the defender. Again by rule then it is a PC foul and not a block.

By rule a defender cannot turn their shoulder into a ball-handler and still be legal.

I'm very confused by the shoulder comments. I don't see B1 turning the shoulder into the offense; I see B1 turning the shoulder in front of A1 and that's where the contact is.

I think the call (no matter which you have) would be the same whether B1 turns or not (in this play).

In the moment I don't have a problem with either call. Both can be easily justified by rule and it would depend on the officials interpretation of the guarding players LGP and positioning on the court. From the angle we have in the video it is made much harder to say for certain.

Turns her shoulder or turns sideways into A1, take your pick. It's what I initially saw in the 12-second full speed clip, and watching in slow motion hasn't changed my opinion. B1 turns into A1. She most definitely did not turn away to absorb contact.

:eek:!!!! Please tell me you did not write what I just read!

MTD, Sr.

This is such an easy charge, at worst a no call as the contact is rather weak. Sure the defender could of opened a bit more to the dribbler. One of the core fundamentals in FED is that a a player is entitled to their spot on the floor as long as they got there first and legally.

This is such an easy block. The defender is sliding (slide stepping?) down the inside of the lane line. She turns her body and causes the contact with her shoulder and her feet are now over (right foot actually outside) the lane line. She doesn't get to move into the offensive player like that.

Block

Easy block call...IMO

She sure does to get to move like that since she has obtained LGP and is allowed to move to maintain it, and she was not moving obliquely into the dribbler when contact occurred.

MTD, Sr.

Yes she did move into the shooter. Was inside the lane and then wasn't. How is that not moving into the shooter and causing the contact?

The defender never left the lane.

I see R1's turning just before contact as simply protecting herself before the impact. That said...I am in the same camp as those who say R1 never attained LGP. It looks like a Block to me. Great discussion though...!!!

Yes I did. Since when can a defender turn their shoulder into an offensive player and still have LGP?

She moved into the offensive player. She was not retreating or moving sideways to maintain LGP at that point.

There's nothing wrong with what he said. A defensive player is never allowed to turn into a offensive player.

The Real Question...
 

Either Camp Block or PC, the LGP question has to be answered.

If you believe block then you believe no LGP

If you believe PC then you believe LGP was obtained.

This discussion about shoulder contact being caused by defensive player and that is why it is a block is a terrible argument. In no way is she moving towards the offensive player, nor is she displacing the offensive player. You are not watching the same clip that is posted in this thread twice. Nor can you argue that by an rule or case play.

So if you believe it to be a block simply state she didn't have LGP and we would argue that if we were on the crew together. But to say that is an easy block call then you are lazily interpreting the rules and listening to the crowd.

It is a difficult call and we have a bad angle to get a real sense of what Lead saw.

Is that a typo? That wouldn't make sense, but a defensive player with LGP can turn into the offensive player to avoid imminent contact.:D

There's a difference between turning to absorb contact...and turning into a defender.

And typo? What typo? Never happened. ;)

It is possible to have a PC foul without a defender ever having LGP. You know that, right?

What Typo!!
 

Gotcha!! ;)

My question then is in that phrase "turning into offensive player" and that situation. When would that happen and how?

In the clip the defensive player is moving at an angle towards the lower block to cut off the offensive player (LGP aside). How does she initiate contact (turn into) and she is leaning backwards, while the offensive player is moving forward.

I would have easy block call even with LGP if the offensive player had her head and shoulders past the torso of the defender and I don't see that there.

Yes I know that, just wondering what the confusion or tick question might be coming? :confused:

It's also possible to have a blocking foul when LGP had been established.

Yes, but I'm in the camp that says it was never established in this play.

If she were moving at angle to cut A1 at the bottom block then her left foot would be at that spot at the time of collision. Instead her right foot (which was behind her back at 0:42) is what ends up at the bottom block while her left foot is still back in the paint. In fact, first contact is made with B1's right foot to A1's left foot. That is not retreating, turning to absorb, or moving obliquely. That is B1 moving towards A1.

You can use all the little cute phrases you like (terrible argument; tick question; listening to the crowd :confused: ), that doesn't change what B1 did at the point of contact.

I don't even know WTF "listening to the crowd" is supposed to mean.

I don't see the defensive player ever obtaining a LGP, prior to the contact.

Why not....turnin "into" is synonymous with moving towards. Hard to imagine it means anything else.

While it is a block, the statement above is incorrect. Possession of the ball by the opponent is not a requirement to have LGP. It may change time and distance required to have LGP but that really isn't the point here.

And, I can't, in any twisted reading of the rules, imagine who a PC would cross anyone's mind. This is a block every day of the week and it isn't even close. She was never facing at any point as far as can be seen in the video. She may have gotten into the path but was far from obtaining LGP.

If the B1 has a LGP against A1 then a blocking foul by B1 against A1 cannot happen.

MTD, Sr.

I apologize in advance for the length of the post.
 

It appears that some people equate LGP with being a defender being positioned on a straight line between an offensive player, who is control of the ball, and the offensive player's team's basket. There is no rule support for this requirement.

Let me describe several scenarios. In each scenario imagine a line running the length of the court connecting the both [Table Side (TS)and Opposite the Table (OT)] free throw lane lines.

But first a historical note: For as long as I have been a basketball official (1971) the definition of LGP was the same, word for word, for three (NFHS, NCAA, and FIBA) rules codes. Until the late 1990's NFHS, NCAA, and FIBA used the word "establish" in their definition of LGP when the NFHS changed the word "establish" to "obtain". This change did not change the definition of LGP. NFHS's decision's to make this change is a story for another time but a good friend and basketball official from Connecticut was the driving force for this change; unfortunately he was never able to get the NCAA Rules Committees to also make the change. None-the-less, I will use the word "obtain" and consider it interchangeable with the word "establish". In fact for me old habits die hard and I tend the use the word "establish" over the word "obtain".


Scenario #1:

A1 has control of the ball for a throw-in along the end line in Team A's backcourt and is standing out-of-bounds where the TS free throw lane line intersects the end line. A2 is in Team A's backcourt standing outside the OT free throw lane at the free throw line. A3 is standing in Team A's backcourt along the OT side line where the free throw line extended intersects the OT side line.


Scenario #2:

A1 has control of the ball for a throw-in along the end line in Team A's backcourt and is standing out-of-bounds where the TS free throw lane line intersects the end line. A1 then passes the ball to A2 who is in Team A's backcourt standing outside the OT free throw lane at the free throw line. A3 is standing in Team A's backcourt along the OT side line where there free throw line extended intersects the OT side line.


Scenario #3:

A1 has control of the ball for a throw-in along the end line in Team A's backcourt and is standing out-of-bounds where the TS free throw lane line intersects the end line. A1 passes the ball (and then starts to run toward Team A's front court along the TS free throw lane line extended) to A2 who is in Team A's backcourt standing outside the OT free throw lane at the free throw line; A2 then starts to dribble toward Team A's front court along the OT free throw lane line extended. A3 is standing in Team A's backcourt along the OT side line where there free throw line extended intersects the OT side line; as A2 starts to dribble A3 starts to run toward Team A's front court along the OT side line.


In all three Scenarios:

B1 is standing in Team A's front court at the division line where the TS free throw lane line extended intersects the division line; B1 is facing A1. B2 is standing in Team A's front court where the free throw line and the OT lane line intersect; B2 is facing A2. B3 is standing in Team A's front court where free throw line extended intersects the OT side line.

Question: Has B1, B2, or B3 obtained a LGP?


MTD, Sr.

Camron:

I do not have a problem with you and I not agreeing on whether this is a "block" or a "charge" because I know that we are on the same page with regard to the definition of guarding and how the definition is to be applied, and we each have made a decision as to whether LGP had been obtained/established or not.

But I am going to use your post about "turning into" as synonymous with "moving towards" to make a point. I do not think that "turning into" or "moving towards" are the best phrases to describe the play we are discussing.

The orientation of B1's body with relation to A1 is not important whether one believes B1 has obtained a LGP or has not obtained a LGP.

If the official judges B1 has obtained a LGP and has been moving to maintain it, the only thing that the official must determine is whether or not if B1 is "moving obliquely into" A1 at the moment of contact between the two players. If the answer is no, then we have a charge, and if the answer is yes, then we have a block.

MTD, Sr.

Right, I am saying until the dribbler was within a few feet of the defender, the defender was never in the path (which is one criteria needed to establish LGP). After the defender does get in the path, at that moment the front of her torso is not facing the dribbler (another criteria needed). I am watching the play from halfcourt to the contact, and while the defender may have established all the necessary elements of LGP at different points throughout the play, the defender never gets all the required ingredients at once. Thus no LGP, therefore block.

Just for my information, what situations?

I am in this camp as well.

Imagine what the browsing fans are thinking when they see that we can't agree. lol


I've got the same call as the L. I do think LGP was obtained early on and later on when B1 did turn her body toward A1 briefly.

Turning into a player or turning away from contact is the same physical action, the only difference is intent. One shoulder has to move forward towards the player and the other will move away.

My question to those who do not feel the facing requirement of LGP has been met is this: how directly must a defender face an opponent to meet the facing requirement? Is it 5 degrees? 15? 45? What is you line of demarcation?

Having LGP grants some rights, but they're limited. If a player who has established LGP moves forward into the shooter at contact, it's a blocking foul. LGP had been established, but the movement by the defender exceeded the legal limits.

On this play in particular, it's possible to think she did establish LGP and still think it was a block due to her actions at the point of contact (moving into the shooter.

Ok, I was expecting you to say something else. I thought you had written still has LGP instead of still had LGP. In the situations you mention, at the time of the foul the defender has lost LGP for those various reasons.

Has and Keeps LGP
 

Disagree with the statement about establishing LGP and then still having a block call. In the scenario you present, the defensive players loses LGP when they are moving towards the offensive player. Which you can also digress to break the rule of verticality.

Either way if a player has and KEEPS LGP then it is a PC foul.

Prior messages have "always" said "establishes." Now you've (correctly) added "maintains." That's the difference.

No one has made that assertion. :rolleyes:

The defender needs to be in the path the offensive player is moving. A1 could be dribbling away from her basket to the division line, then B1 would need to take a position between A1 and the division line. I don't think anyone has suggested B1 could not obtain LGP in this situation.

I have a http://peanutbutterjellytime.net/pea...jelly-time.gif.

I don't think it's all that close either.

Incidentally, I had a similar play to this my first year except the defender got there early enough that he was stationary and screening rules applied. I ruled that one a charge.

You have a dancing banana? :eek: TMI

Oh, that's a "block" signal he's doing. :D

NFHS
Rule: 4-23-2
ART. 2
To obtain an initial legal guarding position:
a. The guard must have both feet touching the playing court.
b. The front of the guard's torso must be facing the opponent.

Both defender's feet were definitely touching the playing court (direction of toes does not matter). However, her torso was not facing the opponent. Therefore, I have a BLOCK, not PC.

Good point, your right

While that can also be considered LGP, I don't believe it is the only place to get LGP. Between the player and the basket is always going to be a position where LGP can be obtained regardless of the direction of movement.

What? One is towards one is away. If LGP has been obtained, one is a foul while the other is legal.

Older:

I am going to use your post to make a point about the "front of the guard's torso must be facing the opponent".


Another point that has been discussed in this thread with regard to LGP is NFHS R4-S23-A2 which states that:

Article 2a: To obtain an initial legal guarding position the guard must have both feet touching the playing court.

Article 2b: To obtain an initial legal guarding position the guard's torso must be facing the opponent.


Now, as a retired structural engineer I get to apply my mathematical skills to discuss NFHS R4-S23-A2.

1) Both Paragraphs (a) and (b) of Article 2 must occur at the same time at some point during the action to obtain LGP.

2) There is no minimum length of time required for the requirements of Paragraphs (a) and (b) to be maintained to obtain LGP. The moment of time can be as short as 0.000,...,...,000,...,1 seconds (One can have an infinite number of 0's between the decimal point at the 1.).

3) The facing of the guard's torso can be defined, mathematically, as follows: At the moment that the requirements of Paragraphs (a) and (b) are met, the orientation of the front of the guard's torso, so as to be facing his/her opponent, must meet the following requirements:

a) Imagine a straight line (Line A) between the between the guard and his/her opponent and imagine a second line (Line B) running through the shoulders of the guard.

b) The angle between Line B and Line A at the point where the two lines intersect can be 90 degrees (the lines are perpendicular to each other).

c) Or, Line B can be rotated about the point where the two lines intersect from their perpendicular orientation in either direction by as much as 89.999,...,999 degrees (One can have an infinite number of 9's after the decimal point.).

(b) and (c) both meet the requirement of Article 2b.


MTD, Sr.

AremRed:

Where in the Rules is this "in the path" of which you speak. I have peruesed the Rules Books from 1971 hence and cannot find it.

MTD, Sr.

TriggerMN:

Why did you think I was not serious?

MTD, Sr.

MTD...the very act of guarding requires the defender to be in the path

NCAA (Men and Women)

Rule 4

Section 17. Guarding
Art. 1. Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent. The guarding position shall be initially established and then maintained inbounds on the playing court.

NFHS:

Rule 4-23
Art. 1 Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent. There is no minimum distance required between the guard and opponent, but the maximum is 6 feet when closely guarded. Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without *illegally contacting an opponent. A player who extends an arm, shoulder, hip or leg into the path of an opponent is not considered to have a legal position if contact occurs.

I never see both of these happening. IMO, the defenders torso never faces the opponent.

+10,000 and fine Cuban cigar.

MTD, Sr.

BadNews:

No where in the rules will you find confirmation of what you said (highlighted in red) in your post above. To take your position would mean that a dribbler could avoid a CGS by dribbling away from a defensive player even though the defensive player stays within six feet of the dribbler.

MTD, Sr.

So if the A1 were dribbling from the endline towards the divison line while in the front court, and B1 was in front of A1, you wouldn't have a count?

APG:

Point taken. But I have never liked that phrase in the rules because of what I said in my recent post (Post #91) in this thread. Furthermore when defenders trap a ball handler, at least one of the defenders may not be in the path of the defender even though he/she has obtained/established a LGP; besides what path has a stationary offensive player established?

It is always been my position that a defender either has a LGP or he does not with regard to a particular offensive player.

I would rather see "the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent" phrase be changed (or delete it completely) to "legally obtaining an unoccupied spot on the playing court" because guarding really comes down to one of five things: 1) denying an opponent a spot on the court; 2) denying an opponent the ball; 3) keeping an opponent from shooting; 4) denying an opponent from passing the ball; or denying an opponent from dribbling.

And NCAA R4-17 and NFHS R4-S23 do a good job in describing what a defender can and cannot do with regard to an offensive player that is moving.

MTD, Sr.

That is what I asked you?

MTD, Sr.

MTD and APG

Isn't in the path generally vague for a reason? The object of the offensive team to is to score within their halfcourt after crossing the division line. There are not time restraints in NFHS so we don't have to examine that, BUT...the path is where the offensive player is intending to go in relation to the basket. When the player is 25 ft. away from the basket they have a large vector they could go and therefore the PATH of the player is wide and the defensive player would need to be in that vector. As the offensive player gets closer to the basket in an attempt to shot, the vector is smaller and the responsibility of the defender increases to get in the correct path. The sidelines and other players change the width of that vector.

But in the play that we are examining in this thread. It is a one on one type situation and the vector path for the offensive player is wide and the defensive player has a right to a wide PATH also.

Another of my 2 cents :rolleyes::eek:

You haven't asked me any questions in this thread that I can remember.

You asserted "It appears that some people equate LGP with being a defender being positioned on a straight line between an offensive player, who is control of the ball, and the offensive player's team's basket.".

I was trying to figure out from where you derived that assertion.

Says who?
Help me here, because I'm not seeing where this relates to the path of the offensive player and I don't see rulebook support for this.

I don't think anyone would bat an eye at a block call on this - or this type of play. But I also actually think an argument could be made that the defender did technically actually establish LGP a few steps before the contact.

I'm personally banging this a block. (And I'm also fortunate enough to not be working a two-person game to give the negatively-affected coach any more ammunition about us possibly being out of position for the call.)

Picky, Picky, Picky ...
 

Here in my little corner of Connecticut, our dancing bananas are discouraged from punching their fists on their hips for a blocking foul. Our dancing bananas are supposed to use their open hands on their hips.

At the 4 second mark, defender has both feet fully in the lane. at 5 seconds, one foot is nearly over the lane line, she moved forward and into the offensive player. BLOCK.

That was my 1st thought and I am yet to be swayed.

When Mark chimed in, I had 2nd thoughts. But by consenses, I believe we have a block.