The Official Forum

The Official Forum (https://forum.officiating.com/)
-   Basketball (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/)
-   -   Free Throw Situation (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/96799-free-throw-situation.html)

Wellmer Tue Dec 17, 2013 05:20pm

Free Throw Situation
 
A1 is at the line to shoot 2 free throws. He bounces it 3-4 times and loses it and it slowly rolls toward the side of the lane when B1 steps into the lane to get the ball. What do you have? Violation on A1 since he wasn't going to be able to retrieve the ball without violating anyway or a double violation since B1 stepped in?

Rich1 Tue Dec 17, 2013 05:32pm

As soon as A1 violates the ball is dead. There can be no violation on B at that point.

JRutledge Tue Dec 17, 2013 05:46pm

I am not so sure about that completely. Is it a violation just because A1 fumbles the ball? Or is it a violation because A1 is not going to likely have a successful FT attempt? And the reason I am thinking this is we only ignore lane-line violations and the one by A1 is not considered a lane line violation as they are not considered on the lane. If A1 had missed a the rim they would not be a lane-line violation. I think we would have a double violation, unless there is rules support that suggest the second A1 fumbles the ball into the lane (and cannot retrieve it without violating) is automatically a violation. I think there is a case play on this one.

9.1.1 says it is a violation for A1 when they muff the ball it is a violation, but it does not make clear when that violation actually takes place.

Peace

Adam Tue Dec 17, 2013 05:56pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 914774)
I am not so sure about that completely. Is it a violation just because A1 fumbles the ball? Or is it a violation because A1 is not going to likely have a successful FT attempt? And the reason I am thinking this is we only ignore lane-line violations and the one by A1 is not considered a lane line violation as they are not considered on the lane. If A1 had missed a the rim they would not be a lane-line violation. I think we would have a double violation, unless there is rules support that suggest the second A1 fumbles the ball into the lane (and cannot retrieve it without violating) is automatically a violation. I think there is a case play on this one.

9.1.1 says it is a violation for A1 when they muff the ball it is a violation, but it does not make clear when that violation actually takes place.

Peace

I'm just going with the violation on A. I'm not going to penalize B for being nice.

JRutledge Tue Dec 17, 2013 05:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 914776)
I'm just going with the violation on A. I'm not going to penalize B for being nice.

That is what it pretty much suggests. I guess I was thinking if the muff the ball and did not get completely away from the shooter. I have seen that happen and no one moved.

Peace

Adam Tue Dec 17, 2013 06:01pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 914777)
That is what it pretty much suggests. I guess I was thinking if the muff the ball and did not get completely away from the shooter. I have seen that happen and no one moved.

Peace

If it's within the shooter's reach when B1 steps in to get the ball, I'm going with the violation on B1. Kill the play, start over with a delayed violation.

JRutledge Tue Dec 17, 2013 06:03pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 914779)
If it's within the shooter's reach when B1 steps in to get the ball, I'm going with the violation on B1. Kill the play, start over with a delayed violation.

That was kind of my thinking. But the casebook does not make that clear or suggest we can consider that fact.

Peace

TwoDot Tue Dec 17, 2013 06:11pm

I have always been advised when the ball is fumbled, to blow the whistle and re-administer the free throw. No violation until a player breaks the plane. I always like to prevent those if I can.

Adam Tue Dec 17, 2013 06:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 914781)
That was kind of my thinking. But the casebook does not make that clear or suggest we can consider that fact.

Peace

I don't need a case book for everything. ;)

JRutledge Tue Dec 17, 2013 06:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 914783)
I don't a case book for everything. ;)

If you mean "use' then I agree. But it is always good to know what is stated because some will and can use the information against you later. ;)

Peace

Rich1 Tue Dec 17, 2013 06:37pm

If the player fumbles the "toss" from the ref initially then you would readminister with no viloations. But if he has the ball and then loses it (as stated in the post) then the shooter has violated, the ball is dead, and we move to next shot.

Ed Maeder Tue Dec 17, 2013 07:04pm

We must look at weather this is a fumble or a muff. A fumble happens when a player has control and loses the ball. A muff was never under player control. In this case the player fumbled the ball and hence violated. Move on to the next shot as A1 has violated. (9.1.1)

BillyMac Tue Dec 17, 2013 07:33pm

Car Fifty-Four, Where Are You ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich1 (Post 914787)
If the player fumbles the "toss" from the ref initially then you would readminister with no violations. But if he has the ball and then loses it (as stated in the post) then the shooter has violated, the ball is dead, and we move to next shot.

This sounds like a casebook play, or a midyear interpretation, from a few years ago. Where's Nevaderef when you need him?

In fact, where is Nevaderef?

Adam Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 914785)
If you mean "use' then I agree. But it is always good to know what is stated because some will and can use the information against you later. ;)

Peace

I meant "need" (fixed). :)

bob jenkins Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:56pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwoDot (Post 914782)
I have always been advised when the ball is fumbled, to blow the whistle and re-administer the free throw. No violation until a player breaks the plane. I always like to prevent those if I can.

That was the philosophy until the case play was added maybe 8 years ago.

bob jenkins Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 914792)
This sounds like a casebook play, or a midyear interpretation, from a few years ago.

It's part of the same case cited earlier (9.1.1)

BillyMac Wed Dec 18, 2013 07:17am

Casebook ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 914810)
It's part of the same case cited earlier (9.1.1)

9.1.1 SITUATION: A1, at the free-throw line to attempt a free throw: (a) muffs
the pass from the official and it rolls forward; or (b) while performing his/her
habitual dribbles prior to the release, accidentally allows the ball to deflect off
his/her foot into the lane. RULING: In (a), the official should sound the whistle to
prevent any violations and then start the free throw procedure again. No freethrow
violation should be called in this situation. In (b), a free-throw violation
shall be called on A1. (9-1-3a, e)

Raymond Wed Dec 18, 2013 08:11am

What if the ball rolls into the lane and A1 calls a time-out before anyone else touches the ball or moves off the lane line?

JetMetFan Wed Dec 18, 2013 08:17am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 914845)
What if the ball rolls into the lane and A1 requests a time-out before anyone else touches the ball or moves off the lane line?

I would think you'd ignore the request since the ball is no longer in his/her control or at his/her disposal.

Rich1 Wed Dec 18, 2013 10:47am

Not sure what the purpose of the time out would be, but it would not affect the situation here. Its still either a redo or a violation depending on the circumstances previously outlines. The time out could be awarded to either team after the ref has whistled to call the violation or to reset the try if it was a muffed catch but I don't know of any way a timeout can be called to avoid a violation (on free throws). Once the shooter or a teammate violates, the ball is immediately dead regardless of when the whistle is actually blown.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:05pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1