What Are You Gonna Do?
 

Rivalry game and we are shooting 2 free throws for a Technical Foul. Before the first free throw, a defensive player wants to stand an inch behind the three point line directly behind the shooter.

What are you gonna do?

No official should do anything as there's nothing to do.

I'd watch to make sure he doesn't disconcert the shooter, but that's all....

I'm gonna congratulate him for not perpetuating rules myths. And I'm probably heading to the sideline to deal with an angry coach who thinks the opposing player can't stand there.

I know the rule, however I also realized the player has no business being that close. There is no rebounding opportunity and you could tell he was trying to create trouble on the play.

I want to adhere to the rule, but I also want to manage the game.

Are you trying to tell us the official did something (when there's nothing in the rule book requiring us to do anything)?

BTW, the rivalry game aspect isn't relevant. If there's a T and it's for unsportmanlike conduct there's already some level of animosity.

That's the truth. I hate "everyone behind the division line"

Everything is relevant as it pertains to the game

And if you move B1 away and Team B's coach says "he's allowed to stand there," then what? He may have had "no reason" being that close but there's nothing in the rule book saying he wasn't allowed to be there so in an effort to stop one problem another may have been created.

B1 can *try* to create trouble but in that situation the only way he *can* create trouble is by disconcerting and/or saying something to the shooter. If that happens, award a substitute FT. Guaranteed that B1's coach won't let him do it again if it costs the team points.

He may also affect the shooter by simply being in that location...but it is his right to be there and if the shooter is bothered by it that is the shooters problem.

"You know, if you're there, it's likely disconcertion and s/he gets another FT?"

If you think what he was doing is unsporting, then deal with it. Otherwise, it's legal.

Either way, it will require all your game management skills (because someone on one side is not going to be happy).

Let me further the scenario: Say the kid that's just behind the 3 point line is the one who got the technical foul for screaming "F--- You" at the kid who is not shooting. Does this change how anyone deals with the situation?

I realize it isn't in the book that he can't stand there, but if you know his sole purpose is to intimidate the shooter, then how is that not an unsporting act? And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying give him a T, I'm saying you need to move him diplomatically if possible. If you're the trail, call him over and have a pointless conversation or SOMETHING to get him to move. This isn't in the rule book, it's just good game management to prevent another possible bad scenario after one that has already occurred.

Let's assume this kid is wearing number 12.

I get close enough for him to hear me and say "Number 12" and when he looks I beckon him over and say "You know, it appears things are getting a bit chippy and from what I have seen so far you are a leader of this team. Think you can help me get everyone focused on just playing basketball so we don't have a parade to the line shooting technicals?"

It may be total BS, but you moved him out of the way and avoided a possible escalation...made it obvious to him that the crew is watching EVERYONE...made him feel important and may have just saved the entire crew some grief. It might not work as the kid may ignore you, but it is worth a shot.

So .. player does something completely legal and isn't otherwise breaking any rule... and is completely out of the visual range of the shooter.

What am I going to do? Absolutely nothing.

If the home team is shooting I can't imagine this would even be an issue. Does he have eye's in the back of his head? If its the visiting team shooting, my guess is the fans are giving him a hell of a lot more than someone standing 6ft behind him. Did this become an issue with a coach, or was this just an observation on your part?

Short of saying something...how is standing 6 feet behind a player going to intimidate anyone? Are you trying to imply that one's mere presence...standing behind someone and not doing anything...is somehow unsporting?

The only thing I might do is what BatteryPowered suggests. Find a way to talk quietly to the kid and let him know he has a very short leash before disconcertion kicks in.

This.

If he's disconcerting, then I'll deal with it. He is legally allowed to be there so I have no business moving him.

I disagree. Chances are, if he's standing there, he's doing it on purpose because he knows he can. There's no reason for him to be anywhere else, either, and the rules don't give us any reason to address his position. If he does or says anything unsporting, address that, but his position? I'm not touching it. Either way a coach is going to be mad, but I'd rather not have to deal with one who's mad AND right.

You've just moved him within the peripheral vision of the shooter, too.

Not if, while he is moving to you, you backup enough so that he is not.

Sometimes it might be safe to assume that people are not as dumb as a box of rocks when reading their post. Some of us are smart enough to think of those things and are hoping the readers are smart enough to understand that not every action in a hypothetical situation needs to be written. For example, I failed to mention that the brief conversation should occur while the official is standing so that he can see the other players and that he/she should continue breathing during the stoppage in play.

Didn't mean to insult your intelligence. :/

So, let me ask, what are you going to do if he doesn't come over when you beckon him?

This conversation is incredibly dumb. There is no rule support to move this player. If you try to, you are causing a problem where one does not exist. I completely fail to understand why standing in one place, completely out of the view of the shooter, would even remotely be considered intimidating any moreso than standing anywhere else on the court.

We don't pick nits.

This is not even a nit. It's an imaginary non-existent nit.

My apologies...guess I woke up a tad bit cranky this morning. I definetly could have stated that more diplomatically.

If the player doesn't come over I am doing nothing because I cannot make him move. You obviously have to be there and see the events leading up to the T and how the game has been going. If the T was unsporting and emotions are obviously high I just consider this "preventative officiating". I was always taught that 95% of the time, trouble starts when the ball stops. If you can do something to difuse the situation why would you not try? I understand there is no basis in the rules for making him move but consider the possibilities of how far south things could go in certian situations if you do nothing.

I'd do nothing, as long as the player isn't talking to / at the shooter.

NCHSAA:

Who says he canNOT be there? I do not care what he was trying to do while standing there as long as he does not Disconcert the Shooter or commit an Unsportsmanlike TF.

Just do NOT go there.

MTD, Sr.

+10

MTD, Sr.

Really. Why does he have no business being there? That question has no answer -- it's NONE OF MY BUSINESS.

frezer11:

B1 is not going to be there because "F-bombs" are FTFs in my game.

MTD, Sr.

What I was going to say also.

MTD, Sr. ~ In the scenerio above, where a player looks at a player (or official/coach) and says "F____ You" towards them I would also have a FTF, but do you actually differentiate between profane words and penalize differently whether it is an F-bomb (FTF) or other profane term (TF)? Many times I have had a player have a turnover and say "ahh F____" and I give them a TF. I can't imagine trying to justify my differentiation of words/terms other than the way it is stated.

+1

I'm not saying do nothing. I'm saying I'm not goint to tell him he has to move. You're right, I'd have to be there, and if I got the sense he was about to do something stupid, I'd be watching like a hawk.

Trouble also comes when we try to enforce non-existent rules for "game management" purposes. Chances are, this kid won't last much longer in the game anyway if he's being that much of a d-bag.

It really doesn't matter if he is in the view of the shooter. There are points along the 3 point line above the free throw line where one would be in eyesight of the shooter. If they aren't disconcerting, then they aren't breaking any rule.

Nothing!!!

Peace

A related thought:

Sometimes good game management is knowing when to leave something alone.

Let me put it this way. My late father was a carpenter for 53 years and I am a retired structural design engineer and worked my way through engineering school as a construction worker. Meaning if you have straight hair, I can verbally curl it; if you have curly hair I can verbally straighten it, because I have been on construction sites all of my life and you get us to the crude language that is sometimes heard on construction sites. You get my drift.

That said, the F-word is an automatic FTF when I am calling JrHS, HS, college, and youth basketball games. That has been my position for the 43 years that I have officiated basketball and the soon to be 22 years of umpiring HS and youth baseball and fast pitch softball.

MTD, Sr.

Don't be a dumpster diver?

I really understand both points of view, but it's very surprising to me how many people here would do nothing simply because that little book doesn't tell us to. When/if that free throw shooter sinks the second one, and turns around and says "You got nothin on me," or some other snarky remark to the kid right behind him, do we let that go? Clearly it's his own fault, so thats fine, but is that not at least to some small degree, our own fault for doing NOTHING to de-escalate the situation? Why not try to call him over as was previously suggested? If he doesn't move, then tough, nothing we can do. For the record, I'm not implying we have to move him, I'm saying why not try to move him?

Well it is not illegal to stand behind a shooter. And because it is a rivalry game does not change the situation either unless something is said by the players standing behind the FT shooter. And even then it is not illegal in itself to speak. Yes, I would pay attention, but that is all there is to do. We do not have a rule situation to move the player arbitrarily. And if a coach told us that he we have no right, he/she would be right. If the rules makers want the player to not stand there, then they will make a rule that disallows that kind of action. But we should be careful as to doing what is not supported by rule at all.

Peace

Honestly, I have no problem if you want to interject yourself and ask the kid to come over; but if the shooter wants to pop off, he's going to do it anyway and I won't lose any sleep over another T here.

I just don't see any reason to do it. I promise I'll be watching both closely, but if he's that much of a hothead, he's already on my radar anyway and I may be talking to him before he even got to the arc.

This has NOTHING to do with that. You seem to assume that directly behind the shooter is some magical intimidation spot that means some snarkiness is about to happen.

I have NEVER (not once... not ever) had a player go there for some sort of message - nor had someone standing there that caused the shooter to react. Why in the world would a shooter make his fouls, and turn around to remark to an opposing player who happened to be standing where you describe.

You might as well be asking, "During a technical foul, a player on the opposing team happens to be standing near the home team's logo. What do you do?" Again... I do NOTHING. It's irrelevant. Right behind the shooter is irrelevant.

You are not just looking for boogers here... you're inventing them.

This exactly.

I'm not gonna prevent the kid from standing there but if I am C I would be right there, probably 3 feet from the guy.

... which means that when they do go there, it will be for "some sort of message" -- and the officials involved should have their antennae up.

I'm a proponent of addressing small problems before they become bigger problems.

Any of the above solutions (moving him, talking to him, letting him stay there) could work depending on the officials' read of the game and the players involved.

I've never had anything close to this scenario, and likely never will either, but I don't think we're responding to something that actually happened, we're responding to a hypothetical (which is like half of the posts in this forum). But the fact that it is a rivalry game and things are heated IS RELEVANT!!! If its any other T in any other game, then your radar isn't up, and a kid standing there seems odd, but whatever. But if you know that there is or might be some bad blood, are you telling me you're not going to pay attention to it more?? You may not act any differently, but you're certainly going to be more tuned in.

So in that situation, I can't see a situation where I don't at least try to get him to move, if for no other reason to put everyone else in that gym at ease.

"The Only Thing Necessary For the Triumph of Evil, Is For Good Men To Do Nothing." -Edmund Burke Haha, I'm kidding, that's a little extreme!

I have been in enough rivalry situations in my career. Nothing is necessarily special about those situations as opposed to many non-conference games between top teams. All rivalry games are not made the same either. I think you are making more out of the rivalry part of this discussion. It does not mean that most of us would completely ignore the situation. But nothing in the rules disallows the player to stand there. And if that bothers the shooter, than what are they going to do in an normal FT situation where the rules for anyone on the lane are the same? Are we in those situations going to get all excited over a player standing behind the FT shooter, properly behind the 3 point line? Now if they are saying something, that is different. And like stated when they do they are quickly on a road to a technical foul. But until that happens, I am not going to over-officiate the situation just to prevent something because of where someone can legally stand. You are not talking to a bunch of rookies about this situation.

Peace

Who said anything about not paying attention? There is a world of difference between paying attention and trying make a player move from a spot he is entitled to stand on.

If he does or says anything while standing on that spot, then T the kid up and move on. Personally, I would rather have him standing there by himself, than standing in a group at the division line where players seem to congregate. I'm more worried about something sparking up between interacting opponents, not some kid standing all by himself.

I have been a commercial lender for over a decade and am on construction sites and deal with contractors on a daily basis so I completely understand the language. Maybe that is why I am not as taken back by the use of the F word to the point of calling a FTF and an ejection. It is always a TF in my games, but the ejection seems extreme in most realistic scenerios to me. I'm not saying you are in anyway wrong, I just wanted to hear your rationale. Thank you for the insight.

Great thoughts and discussions. Thanks!

If a player says "F you!" to an opponent (or me), I'm probably going flagrant.
Most other F-bombs will be a regular T.
A few will just get a quick word from the ref with rabbit ears (me).

I take this stance for the most part. I live in a metropolitan area where colorful language is often used by more than the participants of a game. If any language is directed towards me or a partner, they are treading on thin ice, but that has never happened to me in that fashion. Comments amongst teammates, I might have a "talk to" if it is relatively quiet or not very loud. But any action where it is heard by everyone outside of an injury, I am likely going to penalize. I have yet to ever hear something that I felt was flagrant on its own when it comes to language. Maybe that day will come, it just has not happened yet.

Peace

I have, but it was in a football game.

It was not the F-bomb, though.

In a football game I am much more tolerant of bad language as most people have no idea what is said in the middle of the field. And that also means my tone can be very different as well, without the bad language of course.

Peace

I am, too. This was not a case where tolerance was prudent; I'll leave it at that. :)

This situations seems pretty obvious. There is nothing in the rules that states the defender can't stand there, so you allow it. BUT make sure to pay attention for foul play.

If the coach says something about the player being there, then politely tell him/her "I understand the concern, but unfortunately there is nothing in the rule book that prevents the defender from standing in that spot. But I assure you, I'll make sure there isn't any foul play here."

Personally, I'm a fan of preventative officiating (such as talking to the players who are close to violations like three seconds), so I completely understand wanting to do something to get the defender out of there. But let's not put ourselves in situations that aren't backed up by the rules, and therefore could lead to more problems.

One person earlier in this thread said that if the defender does say something, award the offense another free throw. The place that hurts a team the most is on the scoreboard, so if you affect that then you're probably all good.

BTW, if the defender is out of hand with his words to the shooter, then give him a tech for taunting. I can't imagine giving the other team another free throw, as well as a tech against them, isn't going to help clean things up.

I'd leave out the "unfortunately", but it's essentially what I'd tell him.

"By rule, he's allowed to stand there; but I'm watching him."

If he persists, "Coach, we know things are tense. I need you to keep an eye on your players. Just know we're watching."

Nice

That's it. Nada.