3 Seconds
 

Just a general question I had a game last night and the coach was barking about 3 seconds all freaking night to whoever was in the lead and there was no adavantage disadvantage going on because the ball was passed around the top of the key majority of the game. He called a timeout barked some more why arent yall calling this then begins the rant of three seconds is 1,2,3 toot should be a whistle. Mind you the other coach was coaching didnt have a care in the world about the calls. How would you guys have handled this situation?

Well...there's no advantage/disadvantage component to three seconds or any other violation. Advantage/disadvantage only applies to contact.

Agree
 

I agree jetman but they didnt build a tent or a fort in the paint and like i said it was really not that much post play going on would you call it or leave it be how would you handle that coach???

By rule, the coach was correct about the three secs. call. But, a lot of officials don't like calling 3 secs. Check with your leadership. When in Rome ...

If the violation is there I'm going to get it. As was pointed out, there is no advantage/disadvantage to consider.

While there may be no advantage component in the rule, I don't know of anyone that wants 3 seconds called strictly by the rule. You should, however, be talking the players out of the lane. If they don't listen, go ahead and get one or two early.

Note that this is without regard to the coach bitching on the sideline. That's an entirely different matter. From the way you describe it, he wouldn't have had his coaching box long.

Maybe I'm picturing this wrong, but I don't see myself allowing this to go without a T.

But if he had been ranting 'all freaking night', it would have been addressed sooner.

All Bark, No Bite
 

The 54 foul early season GV game last night afforded all non-officiating elements opportunity to bark about everything they could think of. Both AD's worked the stands diligently for crowd control. Both coaches forced a speed expectation upon their teams that was waaaaaaay above their abilities. But the one bright spot that brought the whistle out of my mouth and a nice big grin to my face was the parent screaming "Three Seconds!!!". . . during a throw-in.
I liked that.

We went 2OT last night and we had around 30 fouls. An absolute joy. The home team ended up with 12 fouls in 5 full quarters of play.

Some idiot did tweet that the fouls were 10-4 at the beginning of the 2OT and we should be ashamed that they weren't even. I laughed at that one.

I would have called it when I saw it. If it was actually happening, this would have quieted him. If it was not actually happening, I'd tell coach we'd keep an eye out ... and if I was keeping an eye out and it wasn't happening - I'd tell him to pipe down.

However, based on your own words it appears to me you knew it was happening and just didn't want to call it. So I'm with coach. Why aren't y'all calling this?

There has been more emphasis lately, at least in these parts, for officials to stop talking to players and just blow the whistle. Directives coming from higher ups ...

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Whatever was going on in or around the paint, a coach is not getting away with this. I popped a coach for this during a summer camp game; he did it while play was live.

Here it appears that the Varsity guys wait until an entry pass comes in and they have been there 3+ seconds and call it.

I like to talk to players myself and get them when they have been in really long or forced the defense to guard them and they are unable to help out with other offensive players.

Frankly, I can go either way. I've got no personal preference, anyway. What we're doing works for us (in that there really aren't a lot of players hanging out in the lane anyway), but if *they* decided we should just start blowing the whistle and stop talking, I'd do it.

It's the opposite here.

Address his concern early -- either by getting the whistle, or by correcting him on a rule inter (e.g., does not apply during throw-in), or by pointing out that you were counting when #5 was in the lane, but he was out by 3, ..

Then, if he keeps up, address his whining.

I was taught in this neck of the woods to call it when we get to three. Of course, we were also taught to count...1..................................2...... ...........2 1/3..............................2 2/3...

Seriously, we were told if the player wants to basically take himself/herself out of the offense not to be quick with the violation at first. Now, if the suddenly get an easy bucket or rebound after being cautioned stick them with the violation at the next opportunity. Maybe I have just been lucky but I usually just reminding them to watch the paint during the first quarter works. I guess they know I/we are noticing and trying not to interupt the flow of the game.

Perhaps I'm just lucky. I've called one in 10+ games and I've only had one coach complain about this -- and he just didn't get that a player can stay in the lane as long as he likes while the ball is in the backcourt.

Of course but we know who's driving that.

I think the UIL would find a way to get rid of us if they could. ;)

Call 3 seconds on his team the very next time you can!

I realize I might get flack for this from the everything by-the-book, letter-for-letter guys, but this is what I've always done too. And although advantage/disadvantage doesn't technically apply, I still use it. If a kid has his foot just inside the lane line on the weak side, and has no effect on the play, I would be hard-pressed to call that. The game is smoother and more enjoyable for the officials, players, coaches and fans when you can get some sort of flow.

Now, as soon as they clearly DO gain an advantage, game over.

IF you're told to do so by your local leadership.

Here, the instruction is, "Don't be a good three-second official. Be a GREAT three-second official." We do not talk kids out of the lane, ever. And as a result, the kids move.

For me, if I reach three on a kid in the lane without the ball, and he makes an obvious effort to get out of the lane (or "bucket," as some still call it here), I'll hold my whistle. If he gets out, fine. If he stays put or gets the ball, tweet.

It's just another violation, no big deal. And, like anything else, when they know you enforce it, it works. Last night, JV-B, a total of zero 3-second rulings from my partner and me. (Some sure couldn't keep their arms down then they moved, though.)

IMHO, this is a perfect time for the "Get out of the lane, 34." You don't, at the moment he's violating, know that this positioning will not end up being advantageous. Obviously, it's not yet... and I get that you say you'd whack him when it becomes an advantage.

But do you whack him at the moment a shot is released and he's been doing this for 5 seconds? No ... probably not - yet NOW he's developed a rebounding advantage from being allowed to park there.

I'm fine with not whistling 3 seconds on the weak side - but is still should be addressed.

This goes with my teaching as well...but like this....

we were also taught to count...1..................................2...... ...........2 1/3......Hey, 42, get out of the lane.......................2 2/3..................3 (whistle if necessary)

I agree completely, and I do give them the "Get out" statement when I see it. And as far as the rebounding position is concerned, you're right, no one likely calls 3 seconds as the shot is going up, and if he does get a rebound, or even impacts how the rebound is made, whehter his team ends up with it or not, then his "Free Pass" so to speak ends, and it is penalized fairly strictly the next time down the court. And just a quick disclaimer, all of this is assuming we are with a foot in on the weak side. In my opinion, if you are on the strong side, even a foot in is an advantage, so a normal 3 second count would be penalized.

I prefer my quote:

"Don't make three-seconds your best call."

:D

I use the same technique some have mentioned...I talk to the players first. I won't blow 3-seconds unless they've been warned 1st...whether it was immediately before I blew or on a previous trip. It's just my opinion...but it's such a "game interrupter" when a partner blows 3-seconds with no warning (usually away from the ball).

That’s cool. Just emphasizing advantage/disadvantage isn’t an issue.

My way of handling it? Well, I’ll address what appears to have happened in your game and go from there. If the HC was “barking…all freaking night” and no one addressed him, frankly the crew brought that headache on itself. I’d have to think at some point early on he made these comments while one of the officials was next to him. Ask him, quietly, “Coach, how may I help you?” When he answers:

*Tell him, by rule, why what he’s asking for isn’t a violation, or…
*Tell him you’ll make sure to keep an eye on things but you haven’t seen one yet

If you address him early in some form that should quiet him down. If he keeps it up at some point someone has to say, “Coach, I hear you but that’s enough.” If he keeps going…well, you know what to do.

+1

As soon as the coach complains about they meant to watch the other team, calmly explain that you HAD to watch his team more closely as well.

Advantage Disadvantage ???
 

JetMetFan: I slightly disagree. Please cite something, in writing, that states that advantage/disadvantage does not apply to violations. I will agree that, in almost all occasions, advantage/disadvantage applies to fouls, but I would not agree that advantage/disadvantage only applies to fouls.

http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...tml#post384619 (Ignore the poll. I hate polls.)

In the immortal words of the infamous Jurassic Referee: "There are certain violations that I think that even the FED rulesmakers would probably agree, if you twisted their arms, that some discretion (read: advantage/disadvantage) is needed to make an appropriate call. Examples might be 3-seconds and the 10-second count on a free-throw shooter.

If instead of advantage/disadvantage you apply intent and purpose and you have a way to not call 3 seconds just because a player happens to be in the lane for 3 seconds.

"Coach, every time I hear 3 in the key I restart my count..."
"Coach if you're calling that then I can't..."

Both of these (for me) usually quiets the coach down if he knows what he's doing....

Now with regards to actually 3 in the key if it's there you may need to call it, but for me it's towards the bottom of the list of things I'm looking for....

You won't find "advantage/disadvantage" in the rules for fouls, either. What you will find, however, is that the foul rule indicates there needs to be some sort of obstructing, impeding, displacement, etc., in order to be considered anything but incidental (legal) contact. No such provision exists in the definitions of "violations."

As Camron notes, though, you can always use the "intent and purpose" stuff.

I'm Already Applying It ...
 

THE INTENT AND PURPOSE OF THE RULES

The restrictions which the rules place upon the players are intended to create a
balance of play; to provide equal opportunity between the offense and the
defense; to provide equal opportunity between the small player and tall player; to
provide reasonable safety and protection; to create an atmosphere of sporting
behavior and fair play; and to emphasize cleverness and skill without unduly
limiting freedom of action of individual or team play on either offense or defense.
Therefore, it is important to know the intent and purpose of a rule so that it may
be intelligently applied in each play situation. A player or a team should not be
permitted an advantage which is not intended by a rule. Neither should play be
permitted to develop which may lead to placing a player at a disadvantage not
intended by a rule.

Wow, you're strict!! Advantage in the lane results in a forfeit!! :D

When I did my floor training as a brand new official, we reffed 4th and 5th grade game or something like that. During one of my breaks, my observer and I had this conversation:

Him: "What's the purpose of the 3-second rule?"

Me: [deer in headlights. totally overwhelmed.] Confused silence. . .

Him: "It's to keep the big man from camping out under the basket and getting easy scores, right?"

Me: Nodding. . .

Him: "Do you see any big men out there?"

From the OfficialForum.com archives (originally aired 4/2/02 -- I love the search function!):

You should count 3-seconds like this:

One.

Man, am I hungry. I could go for a nice slice right now. Or maybe Slider will send me a Krispy Kreme. Mmmmmmm. Doughnuts. Man, that Homer Simpson cracks me up. I wonder what it's really like to work in a nuclear power plant. . .

Two.

Is that cheerleader looking at me? I think she's looking at me!! Nope. Darn, she's looking at the point guard camped in the lane. Camped in the lane? Oh, yeah. . . Where was I?

Two-and-a-half.

"Blue. Clear the lane!"

Yawn. Scratch. Adjust pants.

"Blue! Get outta there!"

WWMTDSD? (What would Mark T. DeNucci, Sr do?)

Doggone it!!

Three!! TWEET!

dee33:

If he had ranted to me: "1, 2, 3, toot!" during a TO to me, then we would have been shooting TF free throws after the TO was over, and it would not the Coach's team that would be shooting the free throws.

MTD, Sr.

further
 

The players would come in I say paint they step out game had a great flow was very consistent but this coach was ranting and they had a great lead HE WANTED A 1,2,3 three seconds come on if it were action in the paint ok but it was very minimal

Nailed it
 

You guys nailed it I never say a specific number I just say paint they step out why because I had said numbers before and a coach had mentioned to me well why did you tell 5 to get out the paint but you couldnt tell 22 to watch his hands so I just keep it simple paint, hands etcand they oblige they know who you're refferring to. As far as the coach this was my response to him and I'm sure alot will be against this but I told him this after the timeout rant I said coach you know everytime I have my count going and you start with your 3 seconds rant I lose count and have to start over again yup he was pissed.

from what u writ here it seems as you did it right I wouldnt change the way you called it but i also wouldnt let the coach rant all night that should have been addressed quickly at the latest he gets a T during that timeout have you talked to your assigner to see how he wants it called and how he thinks you should have addressed the coaches behavior i never use the "i start my count over" approach because it is only likely to make the problem worse

i feel like this is some sort of competition in which we see who can make the longest sentence without some sort of punctuation i mean does anyone else see that i didnt know where one thought ended and the next begun i just kept saying to myself holy cow shouldnt we be using periods or commas every now and again

Punctuation! We don't need no stinking punctuation.

I don't think a moderator should be mocking the grammar or writing style of another poster.

Frankly, I considered simply reminding him that punctuation would help. I tried a different tactic. My intent wasn't mockery, it was to show him how hard it is to read when someone writes like that.

We'll take him out behind the woodshed.

I think he failed. Unlike the other poster, Adam's was still readable.

Is that where the beers are?

I worked a 32-31 game tonight. I could use one or two.

Punctuation
 

I really dont think its that difficult to read maybe if I was home I could pull out the grammar books and make a valiant attempt to portray Einstein but since I'm usually at work responding and posting between tasks who cares if you dont like it ADAM simply dont read t thats your right

You're right, I don't have to read it if I don't want to. Frankly, I couldn't give a crap about your grammar, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm also not talking about your vocabulary.

I'm talking about basic punctuation, something to divide one thought from another. I post from work all the time, I post from my phone all the time. Using a period or a comma doesn't take extra time.

Now, again, I don't have to read your posts, I'm not saying this for my benefit. This is only advice about how to get the most out of this forum. Take it or leave it.

That is stupid. He is the moderator. Part of his purpose is to read posts. (Please pardon the punctuation).

Plus! How? Do you know, whether you "like" - it until after; you've read it.

Peanuts
 

Yup I see the peanut gallery is back make sure yall add extra baby powder to sorry for the vocabulary

There is a difference between vocabulary and punctuation. But, I could be wrong.

Stick around long enough and you will see that the moderators can do whatever they like. The rules do not apply to them.

What rules?

What are these rules that you speak of? That we shouldn't do something because a poster thinks we shouldn't do it?

I belong to another board where your post would get you suspended. Discussion of moderators and moderation there is strictly forbidden.

Not only is that not going to happen here, I didn't even remove your post.

If you would like us to put together a laundry list of rules, let me know.

And on that note, I'm closing the thread.