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-   -   just a little note- travel and coaches (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/96556-just-little-note-travel-coaches.html)

BryanV21 Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 911196)
I think people have to officiate within their personality. Some can use humor and others cannot. Some can be a hardass, others cannot be that way. Some can say things calmly and everything is alright, others cannot express themselves that way. It really is based on your personality and your delivery and sarcasm does work for many officials. And sometimes that delivery is based on the coach you are dealing with and your experience with that coach. And I also disagree that we have to build rapport with coaches. My job is to officiate the game, not be chummy with the coach or get them to like me. They are going to respect me and I will respect them until they prove otherwise, but I will not try to get them to like everything being said. And if I can say something that gets them back to coaching, that is a win for me however that is accomplished. I do not want to deal with a coach all game long debating minor violations and fouls. That does not help them and it certainly is not helping me. And I do not care if a coach gets upset for that reason. That is their problem. Good coaches in my experience worry about their teams, not me or my partners.

Peace
Building a rapport with the coach doesn't mean to get chummy with them. Building a rapport means having mutual respect and an understanding with one another. That could mean being able to be sarcastic or a hard-ass without that coach taking it the wrong way, and making the rest of the game a nightmare.

JRutledge Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanV21 (Post 911197)
Building a rapport with the coach doesn't mean to get chummy with them. Building a rapport means having mutual respect and an understanding with one another. That could mean being able to be sarcastic or a hard-ass without that coach taking it the wrong way, and making the rest of the game a nightmare.
A coach is not going to be around long enough for the game to be a nightmare. Maybe you are worried about what they think, I do not. I only care about answering reasonable question and if a coach gets in the habit of asking silly questions or debating with the answer, they will quickly get ignored by me. And this works very well for me. I use humor a lot and sarcasm a lot. It does not hurt me, but that is my personality. It comes natural because of my humor. And the coaches I have been around a lot realize this and move on. And those officials that always feel like they have to calm down a coach or make them whole get on my damn nerves. And I give coaches a lot of of rope even when they are saying things like "It is 10 to 1" or "We are not going to get any calls from you." I use whatever I need to let it be known what I will tolerate. If I am unsuccessful, I have tools to penalize their actions. But I am sorry, not my goal to build a rapport. My job is to be professional and answer questions when appropriately asked. But it is not my job to debate with them, which often happens or to BS them.

Peace

Adam Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanV21 (Post 911188)
Building a good rapport with coaches is an important aspect of officiating. Even if you don't like a particular coach, being sarcastic like that is counter-productive. If a coach is just too much for you, then don't take another game with him.

Why not just say "coach, I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing what you're seeing. However, I promise you that I'm looking out for it"?

If you already have a good rapport with a coach, then by all means make a joke. It could very well lighten things up and make the rest of the game easier on you both. But be careful about doing that, as it can come off as you being an a-hole, which can only make things worse.
If he's trying to get a call every trip down the court, he's not getting my most accomodating response. He's getting, "Coach, if you have a question, I'll be happy to answer, but I can't have the running commentary."

If he's been relatively well behaved and asks for a call, I may engage the conversation if I have time.

Me: "Coach, what did you see?"
Coach: "coach speak"
Me: either 1) "I saw it differently", 2) "he wasn't holding the ball" (or something like that), 3) "I must have missed it." (always possible)

BryanV21 Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 911199)
A coach is not going to be around long enough for the game to be a nightmare. Maybe you are worried about what they think, I do not. I only care about answering reasonable question and if a coach gets in the habit of asking silly questions or debating with the answer, they will quickly get ignored by me. And this works very well for me. I use humor a lot and sarcasm a lot. It does not hurt me, but that is my personality. It comes natural because of my humor. And the coaches I have been around a lot realize this and move on. And those officials that always feel like they have to calm down a coach or make them whole get on my damn nerves. And I give coaches a lot of of rope even when they are saying things like "It is 10 to 1" or "We are not going to get any calls from you." I use whatever I need to let it be known what I will tolerate. If I am unsuccessful, I have tools to penalize their actions. But I am sorry, not my goal to build a rapport. My job is to be professional and answer questions when appropriately asked. But it is not my job to debate with them, which often happens or to BS them.

Peace
You're clearly having trouble understanding what it means to build a rapport with somebody. What's funny is that it sounds like you're doing just that, as you've allowed yourself to be sarcastic and funny while answering questions and being professional.

BTW, I don't care if a coach likes me. I care about working with the coaches in order to make sure the game goes smoothly.

Raymond Tue Nov 19, 2013 01:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanV21 (Post 911203)
...BTW, I don't care if a coach likes me. I care about working with the coaches in order to make sure the game goes smoothly.
You shouldn't have to work with a coach for a game to go smoothly.

And I shouldn't be interacting with a coach enough to build a rapport.

That's why I'm glad I don't work in a state where schools hire officials directly and where coaches rate officials.

JRutledge Tue Nov 19, 2013 02:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanV21 (Post 911203)
You're clearly having trouble understanding what it means to build a rapport with somebody. What's funny is that it sounds like you're doing just that, as you've allowed yourself to be sarcastic and funny while answering questions and being professional.

BTW, I don't care if a coach likes me. I care about working with the coaches in order to make sure the game goes smoothly.
Well I know I am not trying to develop a close relationship with a coach, which is the definition of "rapport." I am doing a job and if they want an explanation, I do not need a rapport to accomplish just that.

You also said that being sarcastic is counter-productive, but I do that all the time. I usually get a laugh from those very coaches you claim it would take the game to a bad place by using such sarcasm.

Maybe you do not understand that everyone's approach is not your approach. And most of us understand that if we have been around a long time. Just watch guys on TV that work games and see how different their approach, body language or even the way they talk to players or coaches is and it works for each differently. It is about the delivery, not if sarcasm is used or not.

Peace

AremRed Tue Nov 19, 2013 02:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanV21 (Post 911203)
BTW, I don't care if a coach likes me. I care about working with the coaches in order to make sure the game goes smoothly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 911231)
I do not need a rapport to accomplish just that.
I agree with both of you guys. However, I think you are talking on different levels here. What JRut is saying is the norm in college. What Bryan is saying is the norm in HS. Hell, these norms might even be switched depending on what college conferences or HS state you live in.

I don't see a way to prove one philosophy better than the other, so perhaps just agree to disagree.

BryanV21 Tue Nov 19, 2013 02:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 911231)
Well I know I am not trying to develop a close relationship with a coach, which is the definition of "rapport." I am doing a job and if they want an explanation, I do not need a rapport to accomplish just that.

You also said that being sarcastic is counter-productive, but I do that all the time. I usually get a laugh from those very coaches you claim it would take the game to a bad place by using such sarcasm.

Maybe you do not understand that everyone's approach is not your approach. And most of us understand that if we have been around a long time. Just watch guys on TV that work games and see how different their approach, body language or even the way they talk to players or coaches is and it works for each differently. It is about the delivery, not if sarcasm is used or not.

Peace
1. Having a "close relationship" is not the definition of "rapport". If you want to be technical, Merriam-Webster defines "rapport" as being "relation marked by harmony, conformity, accord, or affinity". You don't have to be best friends, or even like one-another to have a good rapport.

2. I should have said that being sarcastic could be counter-productive. I did say you could do so after having already gained a rapport with a coach, and it wouldn't be taken the wrong way. So while I did misspeak, I think my point should have still come through.

AremRed said it best... agree to disagree.

Raymond Tue Nov 19, 2013 02:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 911236)
I agree with both of you guys. However, I think you are talking on different levels here. What JRut is saying is the norm in college. What Bryan is saying is the norm in HS. Hell, these norms might even be switched depending on what college conferences or HS state you live in.....
Definitely switched here. At the HS level my interaction with coaches is very short and limited. At the college level, we are expected to at least be on a first name basis with the HC and address his concerns. Even then, my supervisors don't want us initiating conversations or hanging around the benches unnecessarily.

Of course, colleges coaches are way better behaved and professional than the HS coaches I encounter.

BryanV21 Tue Nov 19, 2013 02:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 911244)
Definitely switched here. At the HS level my interaction with coaches is very short and limited. At the college level, we are expected to at least be on a first name basis with the HC and address his concerns. Even then, my supervisors don't want us iniating conversations or hanging around the benches unnecessarily.

Of course, colleges coaches are way better behaved and professional than the HS coaches I encounter.
This is a great point.

The lower I go in levels, the worse the coaches get. It can be hard enough to handle players that don't know better, but it can be much worse with coaches, as they are typically adults that don't like to think they don't know.

JRutledge Tue Nov 19, 2013 02:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 911236)
I agree with both of you guys. However, I think you are talking on different levels here. What JRut is saying is the norm in college. What Bryan is saying is the norm in HS. Hell, these norms might even be switched depending on what college conferences or HS state you live in.

I don't see a way to prove one philosophy better than the other, so perhaps just agree to disagree.
I do not treat coaches at the college level that much differently then I do at the high school level. That takes too much work on my part to make all these distinctions. What is different about college coaches, they realize they have to coach or they will lose their jobs soon enough. College coaches this is mostly their job, so they better know how to speak to officials or be looking for work.

And no one is trying to prove one is more right. I just showing what works for one person, does not necessarily work for another person. IT is not about being right. I have been around enough to see officials do all kinds of things different and get to the same goal with the coach.

Peace

JRutledge Tue Nov 19, 2013 03:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanV21 (Post 911242)
1. Having a "close relationship" is not the definition of "rapport". If you want to be technical, Merriam-Webster defines "rapport" as being "relation marked by harmony, conformity, accord, or affinity". You don't have to be best friends, or even like one-another to have a good rapport.
Maybe you need to look up the actual definition of the word, rather then stating something as jargon and expecting everyone to be clear with what you mean.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanV21 (Post 911242)
2. I should have said that being sarcastic could be counter-productive. I did say you could do so after having already gained a rapport with a coach, and it wouldn't be taken the wrong way. So while I did misspeak, I think my point should have still come through.
Answering every question a coach has can also be counter-productive. Because if one coach is quiet and one coach constantly needs attention, the quiet coach might not think highly of that official.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanV21 (Post 911242)
AremRed said it best... agree to disagree.
I was not trying to get you to agree with me. You are going to do what you want to do anyway. I was stating my opinion on the topic.

Peace

BryanV21 Tue Nov 19, 2013 03:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 911249)
I do not treat coaches at the college level that much differently then I do at the high school level. That takes too much work on my part to make all these distinctions. What is different about college coaches, they realize they have to coach or they will lose their jobs soon enough. College coaches this is mostly their job, so they better know how to speak to officials or be looking for work.

And no one is trying to prove one is more right. I just showing what works for one person, does not necessarily work for another person. IT is not about being right. I have been around enough to see officials do all kinds of things different and get to the same goal with the coach.

Peace
I don't believe there is no one way to treat everybody. Whether that's coaches, players, fans, table personnel, etc. Go into the coach's meeting with an open mind, get a reading on the type of person the coach is, and work that way. That may mean being a hard-ass, ignoring them, passing them off to a partner(s), etc.

And you don't have to be like me. I'm just trying to clarify my stance, and that is I don't go into a game wanting to be friends with coaches. I go into a game wanting to figure out the best way to work with one another so the game goes off without any real problems.

BryanV21 Tue Nov 19, 2013 03:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 911252)
Maybe you need to look up the actual definition of the word, rather then stating something as jargon and expecting everyone to be clear with what you mean.
I need to look up the definition? I would have sworn I pasted the definition of the word from Merriam-Webster. If you don't agree with the definition, your beef is with Merriam-Webster, not with me.

JRutledge Tue Nov 19, 2013 03:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanV21 (Post 911253)
I don't believe there is no one way to treat everybody.
That is all I was saying if you were paying attention. And what works with on official, will not necessarily work with another no matter how you approach these situations. Some of us are tall, short, fat, muscular build and athletic. You think many people are messing with an official that is a 6'5 guy compared to a 5'2 guy? ;)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanV21 (Post 911253)
And you don't have to be like me. I'm just trying to clarify my stance, and that is I don't go into a game wanting to be friends with coaches. I go into a game wanting to figure out the best way to work with one another so the game goes off without any real problems.
Bryan I do not know you to like you or hate you. I have just been around long enough and been to enough camps to see the multiple different styles of communication people use. I cannot stand when people think one way works with everyone when it comes to communication styles.

Peace


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