just a little note- travel and coaches
 

reminder... because it happens :) darn power of suggestion

So you hear coaches sometimes yelling travel, watch the travel (etc etc)
But sometimes I see that but then refs are too eager to call a travel soon after. Maybe they did miss a travel the first time. I don't know. But they get it in their heads to watch for a travel and when you start watching things that coaches want you to notice you start to see violations that aren't there.
Too often I see travels called after coaches start yelping about it and too often players make good moves and travels are called. Especially on pump/head fakes one way then a move to the other. I know they can be tough to call at times, we all make mistakes with those calls, but just be mindful on how they are called.

This might be true of brand new officials but not anyone who has worked a number of games.

Any official who lets the coach in their head is in for a very long night

Yes, I'm guilty of it. I call a travel on the coach's team :D

on the other hand.....
 

Seen it happen more than once.....:eek:

Most of the time you see it because a) he traveled or b) she traveled.

Just as I'm not going to let the coach tell me when to call a travel, I'm not going to avoid calling it just because he asked me to.

I will, however, tell him to knock it off after about 2 times.

Me: "that means I'll be looking at your team just as hard"

Back in the days when I did little kids rec ball, I once worked a 10u girls game with one of those coaches. Every time the opponents had the ball, he's start yelling "that's a travel! You gotta call the travel!".

Keep in mind that this was a league that was 98% made up of players who had probably never played basketball previously... and the traveling and double-dribble rules were enforced in a fairly relaxed manner.

Told the coach to knock it off a couple of times... which worked, for about 2 trips up and down the court, before he'd start in again. Finally I turned to him and said "You want me to call every single travel, coach?" "Yes." "Ok then".

His team's next 6 possessions ended via traveling violations.

"Did I make my point, coach?" "Yes" "Ok then"

Didn't say a word to me the rest of the game.

Call it both ways, Ref! As a coach be *very* careful what you ask for!

JV boys coach last year asks me to watch the pushing down low. What's the next thing I see? His player giving a nice two-hander to a player about to catch the ball. Next thing I hear from the bench "not on us, ref!!"

I've been known to use that theory. I like it.

If he's gonna be a jerk about it, his team will definitely get the first call. IF the behavior persists, I'll let the coach know that if he's going to call it, I'm not. :)

Most experience officials will nail that coach's team first. Coaches also learn the officials tendencies just like officials know the coaches. If they have been around a while they know if an official tends to call somethings tight or likes to try to talk the players out of violations and fouls early in the game. They also know who they can successfully "work". Some coaches rarely say anything...so when they do if usually means something.

A good example was one of my last games before the health "vacation". I warned both teams a couple of times about 3 second violations (keep in mind, I count slow so when I get to 3 they should have already moved). I finally called a violation and the coach yelled at his player "If either of these guys are calling you for 3 seconds you have been in there for a week. Move your butt." I almost spit my whistle across the floor.

yeah... the "Now you call it!, what about the last one"


I've done it and I've seen experienced refs do it as well. I've seen calls that are 100% not a violation. It may appear to be but you are getting in your head because of what the coaches are saying so you aren't viewing it objectively. They have their games to play too. Just try to watch out for it is what I'd tell fellow refs.

+1

I just go by a saying I was taught as a younger ref..

"Answer comments... ignore statements."

Of course, that line has one more part...

"penalize insanity"

Answer questions, acknowledge requests, ignore comments.

Oops, I messed my part up.

It was "answer questions, ignore comments, penalize insanity."

I like BNR's too.

I'll ignore the comments until it's clear they're persistent. I don't allow persistent.

When persistence becomes insufferable, then we've moved into that "insanity" area. In which case you can "t 'em up".

That's one of the four P's! Persistent, profane, personal, and public.

I prefer to do what I can to prevent it from becoming insufferable. Once I realize, for example, that he's going to spend more time reffing than coaching, we're going to have a short CTJM. Nip it early, and the game goes more smoothly.

"Coach , I'll be glad to answer YOUr reasonable questions about a play, but I cannot have your assistant commenting on the officiating."

"I apologize for my assistant."

(Yes, more than the 5 words I like to use)

One Lump, Or Two ???
 

... especially when the persistent becomes distracting.

...or (to keep it under 5)

looking at the Coach,

"You yes, Assistants no.";)

Step Up To The Plate ..
 

Where's the Forum member with the organ grinder quote?

The best line ever:

"It is going to be like Jeopardy tonight. Everything needs to be in the form of a question"

This is what I do. Then the coach looks at me like WTF. I say "I didnt know you meant to call it on the other team...*sheepish look*"

For some reason he doesnt yell Travel any more that night...

:D

I like this one a lot!

I get that a lot of officials do this, and that includes a lot of guys I respect a lot.

I personally don't like it, no matter how much I understand it.

Building a good rapport with coaches is an important aspect of officiating. Even if you don't like a particular coach, being sarcastic like that is counter-productive. If a coach is just too much for you, then don't take another game with him.

Why not just say "coach, I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing what you're seeing. However, I promise you that I'm looking out for it"?

If you already have a good rapport with a coach, then by all means make a joke. It could very well lighten things up and make the rest of the game easier on you both. But be careful about doing that, as it can come off as you being an a-hole, which can only make things worse.

I think people have to officiate within their personality. Some can use humor and others cannot. Some can be a hardass, others cannot be that way. Some can say things calmly and everything is alright, others cannot express themselves that way. It really is based on your personality and your delivery and sarcasm does work for many officials. And sometimes that delivery is based on the coach you are dealing with and your experience with that coach. And I also disagree that we have to build rapport with coaches. My job is to officiate the game, not be chummy with the coach or get them to like me. They are going to respect me and I will respect them until they prove otherwise, but I will not try to get them to like everything being said. And if I can say something that gets them back to coaching, that is a win for me however that is accomplished. I do not want to deal with a coach all game long debating minor violations and fouls. That does not help them and it certainly is not helping me. And I do not care if a coach gets upset for that reason. That is their problem. Good coaches in my experience worry about their teams, not me or my partners.

Peace

Building a rapport with the coach doesn't mean to get chummy with them. Building a rapport means having mutual respect and an understanding with one another. That could mean being able to be sarcastic or a hard-ass without that coach taking it the wrong way, and making the rest of the game a nightmare.

A coach is not going to be around long enough for the game to be a nightmare. Maybe you are worried about what they think, I do not. I only care about answering reasonable question and if a coach gets in the habit of asking silly questions or debating with the answer, they will quickly get ignored by me. And this works very well for me. I use humor a lot and sarcasm a lot. It does not hurt me, but that is my personality. It comes natural because of my humor. And the coaches I have been around a lot realize this and move on. And those officials that always feel like they have to calm down a coach or make them whole get on my damn nerves. And I give coaches a lot of of rope even when they are saying things like "It is 10 to 1" or "We are not going to get any calls from you." I use whatever I need to let it be known what I will tolerate. If I am unsuccessful, I have tools to penalize their actions. But I am sorry, not my goal to build a rapport. My job is to be professional and answer questions when appropriately asked. But it is not my job to debate with them, which often happens or to BS them.

Peace

If he's trying to get a call every trip down the court, he's not getting my most accomodating response. He's getting, "Coach, if you have a question, I'll be happy to answer, but I can't have the running commentary."

If he's been relatively well behaved and asks for a call, I may engage the conversation if I have time.

Me: "Coach, what did you see?"
Coach: "coach speak"
Me: either 1) "I saw it differently", 2) "he wasn't holding the ball" (or something like that), 3) "I must have missed it." (always possible)

You're clearly having trouble understanding what it means to build a rapport with somebody. What's funny is that it sounds like you're doing just that, as you've allowed yourself to be sarcastic and funny while answering questions and being professional.

BTW, I don't care if a coach likes me. I care about working with the coaches in order to make sure the game goes smoothly.

You shouldn't have to work with a coach for a game to go smoothly.

And I shouldn't be interacting with a coach enough to build a rapport.

That's why I'm glad I don't work in a state where schools hire officials directly and where coaches rate officials.

Well I know I am not trying to develop a close relationship with a coach, which is the definition of "rapport." I am doing a job and if they want an explanation, I do not need a rapport to accomplish just that.

You also said that being sarcastic is counter-productive, but I do that all the time. I usually get a laugh from those very coaches you claim it would take the game to a bad place by using such sarcasm.

Maybe you do not understand that everyone's approach is not your approach. And most of us understand that if we have been around a long time. Just watch guys on TV that work games and see how different their approach, body language or even the way they talk to players or coaches is and it works for each differently. It is about the delivery, not if sarcasm is used or not.

Peace

I agree with both of you guys. However, I think you are talking on different levels here. What JRut is saying is the norm in college. What Bryan is saying is the norm in HS. Hell, these norms might even be switched depending on what college conferences or HS state you live in.

I don't see a way to prove one philosophy better than the other, so perhaps just agree to disagree.

1. Having a "close relationship" is not the definition of "rapport". If you want to be technical, Merriam-Webster defines "rapport" as being "relation marked by harmony, conformity, accord, or affinity". You don't have to be best friends, or even like one-another to have a good rapport.

2. I should have said that being sarcastic could be counter-productive. I did say you could do so after having already gained a rapport with a coach, and it wouldn't be taken the wrong way. So while I did misspeak, I think my point should have still come through.

AremRed said it best... agree to disagree.

Definitely switched here. At the HS level my interaction with coaches is very short and limited. At the college level, we are expected to at least be on a first name basis with the HC and address his concerns. Even then, my supervisors don't want us initiating conversations or hanging around the benches unnecessarily.

Of course, colleges coaches are way better behaved and professional than the HS coaches I encounter.

This is a great point.

The lower I go in levels, the worse the coaches get. It can be hard enough to handle players that don't know better, but it can be much worse with coaches, as they are typically adults that don't like to think they don't know.

I do not treat coaches at the college level that much differently then I do at the high school level. That takes too much work on my part to make all these distinctions. What is different about college coaches, they realize they have to coach or they will lose their jobs soon enough. College coaches this is mostly their job, so they better know how to speak to officials or be looking for work.

And no one is trying to prove one is more right. I just showing what works for one person, does not necessarily work for another person. IT is not about being right. I have been around enough to see officials do all kinds of things different and get to the same goal with the coach.

Peace

Maybe you need to look up the actual definition of the word, rather then stating something as jargon and expecting everyone to be clear with what you mean.

Answering every question a coach has can also be counter-productive. Because if one coach is quiet and one coach constantly needs attention, the quiet coach might not think highly of that official.

I was not trying to get you to agree with me. You are going to do what you want to do anyway. I was stating my opinion on the topic.

Peace

I don't believe there is no one way to treat everybody. Whether that's coaches, players, fans, table personnel, etc. Go into the coach's meeting with an open mind, get a reading on the type of person the coach is, and work that way. That may mean being a hard-ass, ignoring them, passing them off to a partner(s), etc.

And you don't have to be like me. I'm just trying to clarify my stance, and that is I don't go into a game wanting to be friends with coaches. I go into a game wanting to figure out the best way to work with one another so the game goes off without any real problems.

I need to look up the definition? I would have sworn I pasted the definition of the word from Merriam-Webster. If you don't agree with the definition, your beef is with Merriam-Webster, not with me.

That is all I was saying if you were paying attention. And what works with on official, will not necessarily work with another no matter how you approach these situations. Some of us are tall, short, fat, muscular build and athletic. You think many people are messing with an official that is a 6'5 guy compared to a 5'2 guy? ;)

Bryan I do not know you to like you or hate you. I have just been around long enough and been to enough camps to see the multiple different styles of communication people use. I cannot stand when people think one way works with everyone when it comes to communication styles.

Peace

I realize that, but I think that is due to the fact that you have done college ball. A guy who only does HS may have never been exposed to college philosophies, and thus would interact with coaches differently. Make sense?

rap·port
raˈpôr,rə-/
noun
1.
a close and harmonious relationship in which the people or groups concerned understand each other's feelings or ideas and communicate well.
"she was able to establish a good rapport with the children"
synonyms: affinity, close relationship, understanding, mutual understanding, bond, empathy, sympathy, accord More

Peace

I meant that coaches don't have to like me. I'm way too new around here for you or somebody else here to hate me. But give it time. LOL

That's good that you can concentrate on two words in the definition, but ignore the other 42.

I do not approach these conversations from a college official standpoint as if I do not work high school. My schedule is mostly high school games. Officiating is officiating. And most of the successful officials I know in basketball are college officials because they understand that the same concepts used at one level works at the lower levels. And when officials think that there is this vast difference, they really do not understand officiating. Almost every done from the pros is the same things we do in college or high school. The difference is the higher levels talk about these things more than they do at the high school level. High school officials often think there is this drastic philosophy difference without understanding what is even talked about.

And for the record, my main college supervisor is one of my high school supervisors. He talks about the very same things at both levels as to how to apply rules and deal with coaches.

Peace

If you do not agree that is fine. I am not trying to build a rapport with a coach. I want to be professional with what they ask and expect them to do the same. I do not have the same goals for the game that they do. They think they can say something to us and we are influenced. They are often mistaken and not my concern to have them like what they hear from me. If that is your approach, so be it. Just understand a lot of officials could give a damn and are fine. :)

When are we going to have mutual understanding. If a coach feels you are wrong, you are not going to always change their mind by telling them something.

What bond do I want to have with a coach? I might get a bond, but in the game not my goal. I develop bonds with coaches after being around them in several games and they realize I am doing my job and not much else. Most coaches will respect that fact.

Not sure why I would have to have either of these things. Again I am not a coach and I know they can get frustrated, but I am not the whipping boy for them. If they want information I will give it to them. But feeling these things are not going to change the fact their team cannot stop turning the ball over or taking bad shots.

Peace

Like other comments before it, this response tells me that you are not getting what I'm saying. Building a rapport has NOTHING to do with being friends, or being "chummy" as you once put it. You're simply figuring out a way to work with one another, so if a question or concern comes up you can take care of them without any misunderstandings or ill feelings, which could affect other things down the road.

I don't know another way to go, either. So I guess this is where our conversation ends.

I thought you said to agree to disagree?

And all that you said is not my goal as an official. I have been in enough situations where no matter how much rulebook language you use, how nice you say thing, coaches do not have your agenda in communicating with you as an official. They want to be right. They often are used to being in control. So they think saying something to you is going to influence what you do as an official. They think that you have an agenda as an official (like protecting a star or not ticking off the opponent's coach). They think we care where the game is being played or who assigns the game. So why in the world would I try to develop an rapport with a person that thinks I have a certain agenda about the game? If that is your goal that is fine, but it is not the goal many I know have when dealing with coaches or trying to communicate with them.

Peace