New Mexico St.-Hawai'i shooting foul (video)
 

My first two thoughts on this, for what they're worth...

1. Possible overcompensation on calls due to the POE
2. Who watches what in the post

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It look like he got his wrist on the shot.

And it still could be an over compensation for the other rules being called this year.

Peace

Missed offensive foul.

And I have noticed "overcompensation" in a couple of my games so far this year.

Agree with Bob.

And why is the T making this call? Have a hard time believing he had a clean look at that play.

+1

The "contact" occurred on the baseline side...why is T putting a whistle on it?

I think T has a better look than L.

L could have closed down -- but usually T and C have to get the feet and contact up top.

That is a terrible call. What POE are they over compensating for in this play? This isn't a hand checking/freedom of movement play. It is a LGP/verticality play and it looks like the defender did a pretty good job establishing and maintaining his position.

Usually.

Like I said, I have a hard time believing he had a clean look at this play.

L definitely had a good look at this. The displacement isn't much, but it is there.

I do not think I would call an offensive foul here. There is going to be come contact there.

Peace

FWIW I think the defender got him on the wrist and subsequently a part the the shooting elbow late. Probably had an effect on the shoot being short. What do you think about the offensive player using his arm to slightly hook, and use body to create a little space between him and the defender? Could this have been why the L may have passed on the call?

If you pass on all the offensive contact, I'm definitely not calling a contact foul on the wrist/elbow, especially when the offensive player invaded the defender's space.

That's a pretty tough sequence to defend to the Coach or to an observer/supervisor. If they aren't calling anything on the clearing-out by the offensive player, there needs to be way more contact on the shot to warrant a whistle.

What it is is a travel, the kind that "never gets called at this level."

I guess that is what I was reaching for. We have the luxury of viewing this multiple times, and the lead didn't see anything. Either he missed it, or the T saw something we didn't. If the T is going to make this call then it's on him to explain. I haven't worked a JUCO game since the 90's due to my job moving me around to much. I am curious what the current college officials think about this play as it pertains primary and secondary coverage at your level.

What video are you watching? :confused:

I see a player holding the ball in two hands with his left foot on the floor. He steps with the right foot, then lifts the left foot and returns it to the floor.

What did you see?

The dribbler does lift his pivot foot a fraction before releasing the ball to start he dribble.

Just looked at it again and I agree, his left foot is pivot foot. It is lifted and then returned to the floor. I didn't even look at that part of the play the first time I watched the video because I was focused on the contact and location of the whistle.

If the T is going to call anything on this play, this travel is what he should be getting. This has been a big emphasis in John Adams videos the last few seasons with the T coming in and helping out on this type of travel violation.

Bob I think the travel JAR is referring to is that the player spins with his left foot as the pivot foot and right foot off the floor. Steps onto his right foot and lifts his left foot, and then places his left foot back on the floor. The spin move was illegal, not the move when he starts his dribble.

Sure -- but he clarified while I was posting.

The player travelled twice, cleared out and then is fouled.

that is DEFINITELY a shooting foul on the defender (he NEVER got the ball during the shot attempt - only wrist and arm)......

the offensive post player traveled just prior to displacing the defender prior to his shot attempt (imho, the "first" travel that others have mentioned is one you really have to "split hairs" on to call - i'm not gonna call that one).

Ok, watched it again. Most definitely a travel on the spin move. And "this level" puts that travel on its video every year.

That travel gets called at "this level" more than it does at the HS level.

Absolutely true.

Peace

I can't argue that point and neither can you, but what I can argue is that travel gets missed/ignored at this level over and over. What explanation is there for not calling this one? It was obvious to me from every angle, even the first angle where you can't even see the guy's feet.

Slight contact on the wrist. Marginal at best. Should have no called it. I don't think this has anything to do with the new emphasis at all. This is just a miss, like every other year where we aren't perfect.

In either case, whether you judge marginal or not, I liked the cadence.

Definitely a travel.

Although this play is hardly a prime example of it, I hate that offensive players constantly get foul calls after going into the defender's vertical space.

It's definitely not enough that I'd call an offensive foul, but there's no way I'd call a foul on the defense. The fact it comes from the trail official, who probably shouldn't be looking for that type of call, is sad.

What's your explanation when you miss a call?

Shouldn't the L be in close-down so he is receiving the play and has the slot angle?

Independent of the play in question, slight contact on the shooting arm (including the wrist) will almost always be a foul on the defender.

I usually don't have one, but I've never had video to look at after the fact. Sometimes a reason for a missed call is obvious, straightlined, transition play with no official in position, etc. But in this play the travel is obvious to me from every angle. Just wondered.

Of course you would never miss and obvious travel. :rolleyes:

Peace

Did I say that, Jeff? I said I didn't miss this one. There were 13 comments on the thread before I looked at the video, and none of them mentioned the travel. When I looked, the travel is the first thing I saw. BNR got sarcastic at first:

Then when he looked a second time said I was "most definitely" right. Does anybody still say this isn't a travel?

I am going to be honest with you, I do not see this so-called travel. I see a spin move where the guy ends a dribble while he is spinning and lands one foot after the other. And if I cannot tell, I am not calling it. It is close, but not obvious IMO. But hey, to each his own.

Peace

I'm going to agree with Jeff as far as the travel is concerned - shocking, I know ;) - for the same reason. When I posted it the violation definitely crossed my mind. The only issue in my head, even with the second angle, was when did A1's dribble end.

Do you really let defenders smack shooters on the wrist just before they release the ball? Really? If it was a dunk or the shot came off clean, maybe. But that should be a foul every day. There is nothing remotely legal about preventing a shot like that.

That said, it should have been a offensive foul for moving the defender back with an elbow in his rib cage before calling that.

Absolutely. Pretty clear cut travel too. Gets missed too often and defenders are left trying to defend and illegal move. And with the adjustments to the rules it will make a defenders job even harder unless they also balance out the new strictness on contact with comparable attention to traveling. But, of course, they wont since the goal isn't really balance but increased scoring.

No surprise there. :rolleyes:

I dont know. Looks like the hook by the offensive player was just as bad as the contact by the defensive player. If I'm passing on one I'm probably passing on both.

BTW, he does travel. Not even really close. Pretty evident.

Yeah, it was so not close it was not even called. I guess we all hear have better judgment then the people we see on TV.

Peace

+1 And it pretty much preceded all the contact being debated here. Put a POE on that and see what happens in the college game.

Sounds like the NBE.

Yes, obvious to you from the angle of the video screen. I'm sure someone with video of one of your games or my games says the same thing when we miss a call.

It is not about better judgement. It is about a better view.

Didn't say I have better judgment, just said I see the pivot picked up and returned to the floor before a shot or pass.

Anyone?

I don't think that would help him at all, he has a good open look where he is at. If he was in close down, his angle would be worse and his view obstructed.

I like looking at plays from the outside in, rather than from the inside out.

I too have a travel with the pivot move on video. Doubt I would have caught it in real time though. I then have a PC, maybe let the first contact go but then with the elbow hook and push off, I am getting that for sure. The foul on the wrist by the defender is definitely a foul every day of the week, including January, but I would hope we got the offense first.

hmmmmm
 

Im fairly new to this but if it were me if I missed the travel then i definitely have to hit him for the obvious hook IMO.:mad::mad:

+1

Nice catch!