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-   -   Intentional Foul by the Shooter (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/96500-intentional-foul-shooter.html)

ronny mulkey Fri Nov 08, 2013 01:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 910178)
And I do not consider any of that action as an "intentional foul" as I stated earlier. All I am saying is I do not imagine a shooter committing and Intentional foul. If people want to get into all the "what ifs" that is fine, I just think it is a practice in futility most of the time. I think it is better to stick with real world situations, rather then things that are not likely to be called or seen.

Peace
SniperBBB has a real world situation. Shooter "lines his defender up in his sight", gathers the ball, lowers his shoulder and runs over the defender. I don't know if this is likely but I have seen it many times.

JRutledge Fri Nov 08, 2013 02:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronny mulkey (Post 910188)
SniperBBB has a real world situation. Shooter "lines his defender up in his sight", gathers the ball, lowers his shoulder and runs over the defender. I don't know if this is likely but I have seen it many times.
And how many times have you called this an intentional or flagrant foul?

Peace

ronny mulkey Fri Nov 08, 2013 02:38pm
Rut,

I've never called flagrant on this play. But, I have called it intentional after having "missed" it many other times. The play I'm discussing has led to some escalating contact when I just called a normal PC foul. Because of those experiences, I was/am determined to not let this type play continue. I don't even know if "excessive" contact applies to a shooter??? But, this play is rough AND it has intent. I don't see it any differently than the hard contact made ON the shooter.

My point is -it doesn't happen often (not likely as you put it) but it surely fits in your "seen it" category.

JRutledge Fri Nov 08, 2013 02:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronny mulkey (Post 910193)
Rut,

I've never called flagrant on this play. But, I have called it intentional after having "missed" it many other times. The play I'm discussing has led to some escalating contact when I just called a normal PC foul. Because of those experiences, I was/am determined to not let this type play continue. I don't even know if "excessive" contact applies to a shooter??? But, this play is rough AND it has intent. I don't see it any differently than the hard contact made ON the shooter.

My point is -it doesn't happen often (not likely as you put it) but it surely fits in your "seen it" category.
So a player that is dribbling hard to the basket and they happened to lower their shoulder and run over a player in a LGP, you have called an intentional foul? OK. How did that work out for you?

And my comment again was about the shooter, not anyone else doing any other type of action.

Peace

BigT Fri Nov 08, 2013 02:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronny mulkey (Post 910193)
Rut,

I've never called flagrant on this play. But, I have called it intentional after having "missed" it many other times. The play I'm discussing has led to some escalating contact when I just called a normal PC foul. Because of those experiences, I was/am determined to not let this type play continue. I don't even know if "excessive" contact applies to a shooter??? But, this play is rough AND it has intent. I don't see it any differently than the hard contact made ON the shooter.

My point is -it doesn't happen often (not likely as you put it) but it surely fits in your "seen it" category.
Can you give us some examples and what you would call now based on the above quote please?

AremRed Fri Nov 08, 2013 03:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronny mulkey (Post 910188)
Shooter "lines his defender up in his sight", gathers the ball, lowers his shoulder and runs over the defender. I don't know if this is likely but I have seen it many times.
This could be intentional, but it just sounds like a really-easy-to-call PC foul.

ronny mulkey Fri Nov 08, 2013 03:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigT (Post 910196)
Can you give us some examples and what you would call now based on the above quote please?
By "above post", do you mean my post or Rut's post? I have never called a intentional on a dribbler but I have called an intentional on the play that I'm TRYING to describe. It's done on purpose - I see you there and get out of my way next time. No attempt to draw a foul on the defender - just run him over while shooting.

I think I have asked this question before - does excessive contact only apply to a defender (I think the verbiage is 'with an opponent while playing the ball")

ronny mulkey Fri Nov 08, 2013 03:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 910197)
This could be intentional, but it just sounds like a really-easy-to-call PC foul.
Aremred,

If you say "could" then I feel good with this play that I'm trying to describe. As Rut is saying - not likely - but as SniperBBB states - "seen it".

JRutledge Fri Nov 08, 2013 03:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronny mulkey (Post 910198)
By "above post", do you mean my post or Rut's post?
He quoted you, not me. ;)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronny mulkey (Post 910198)
I have never called a intentional on a dribbler but I have called an intentional on the play that I'm TRYING to describe. It's done on purpose - I see you there and get out of my way next time. No attempt to draw a foul on the defender - just run him over while shooting.
Intentional fouls are not based on if the action is done on purpose. A player might be going hard to the basket on purpose but thinking they are going to get a foul in their favor. That does not mean we call an intentional foul as a result. You have absolutely no rules support for this position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronny mulkey (Post 910198)
I think I have asked this question before - does excessive contact only apply to a defender (I think the verbiage is 'with an opponent while playing the ball")
No. No one has suggested this only applies to one side of the ball. But I have yet to see an example in interpretation that suggests we are missing or we should call intentional fouls on shooters trying to go to the basket. Maybe if there was OK, at least that is addressed. But you and others IMO are picking nits to fit a definition that does not apply to real world application. And considering how many times I have seen information about a dribbler lowering their shoulder to get to a spot or any action that is basketball related to be called intentional.

Peace

ronny mulkey Fri Nov 08, 2013 04:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 910201)
He quoted you, not me. ;)



Intentional fouls are not based on if the action is done on purpose. A player might be going hard to the basket on purpose but thinking they are going to get a foul in their favor. That does not mean we call an intentional foul as a result. You have absolutely no rules support for this position.



No. No one has suggested this only applies to one side of the ball. But I have yet to see an example in interpretation that suggests we are missing or we should call intentional fouls on shooters trying to go to the basket. Maybe if there was OK, at least that is addressed. But you and others IMO are picking nits to fit a definition that does not apply to real world application. And considering how many times I have seen information about a dribbler lowering their shoulder to get to a spot or any action that is basketball related to be called intentional.

Peace
The purpose is not to go to the basket. The purpose is to run over the defender to discourage him from being there next time. Change "on purpose" to "premeditated" and you will have all kinds of rule support in the definition. There is also "include, but not limited to" in the definition.

The play that I'm trying to describe is nothing similar to your dribbler scenario. Sniper's description was clear to me. There is a possibility that if you saw the play that I have seen, that you might assess a flagrant?????

Anyway, the intentional has worked for me. Did the coach like it? No. Been there. Missed it. Play got rougher. Called an intentional. Play settled down.

BillyMac Fri Nov 08, 2013 06:04pm
It Could Happen ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 910178)
I do not imagine a shooter committing and intentional foul.
How about a "stiff arm" to the face, like in football?

http://ts3.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.45974...55782&pid=15.1

JRutledge Fri Nov 08, 2013 06:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 910213)
How about a "stiff arm" to the face, like in football?

http://ts3.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.45974...55782&pid=15.1
Someone could die in the locker room and we would have to penalize the team for not being on the court and ready to play too, but I have never heard anyone suggest that should be the case and T up a team for such action.

And yes that was a serious question for a football class a few years ago. :rolleyes:

Peace

APG Fri Nov 08, 2013 06:14pm
When was the last time you saw a shooter try and stiff arm a defender like a football player? The closest would be a wipe off by the shooter, but I've never see that come close to the level of an intentional foul.

Adam Fri Nov 08, 2013 06:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by APG (Post 910217)
When was the last time you saw a shooter try and stiff arm a defender like a football player? The closest would be a wipe off by the shooter, but I've never see that come close to the level of an intentional foul.
Maybe, but Camron made a good point with regard to the newly stiff penalties associated with elbow contact. This scenario is suddenly more likely than it was 4 years ago.

No, I still haven't seen it.

BillyMac Fri Nov 08, 2013 06:32pm
How About Two Fingers To The Eyes, Like Moe Does To Curly ???
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by APG (Post 910217)
When was the last time you saw a shooter try and stiff arm a defender like a football player? The closest would be a wipe off by the shooter, but I've never see that come close to the level of an intentional foul.
Never. JRutledge said that he couldn't imagine, so I'm using my imagination, and I'm trying to imagine.


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