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-   -   End of game foul (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/96346-end-game-foul.html)

Sharpshooternes Tue Oct 22, 2013 03:04am

End of game foul
 
Just processing in my head. Is their any difference between
Jump for try, foul, horn, release, land.

or

Jump for try, horn, foul, release, land?

AremRed Tue Oct 22, 2013 03:15am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes (Post 908263)
Just processing in my head. Is their any difference between
Jump for try, foul, horn, release, land.

or

Jump for try, horn, foul, release, land?

Yes. (NFHS)

First situation: wipe the shot, as it was released late. Award the free throws with the lane cleared. If the end of the game, and the shots will not affect the final score, report the foul and that's it.

Second situation: ignore the foul unless intentional or flagrant.

bob jenkins Tue Oct 22, 2013 08:11am

Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 908264)
Yes. (NFHS)

First situation: wipe the shot, as it was released late. Award the free throws with the lane cleared. If the end of the game, and the shots will not affect the final score, report the foul and that's it.
Second situation: ignore the foul unless intentional or flagrant.

correct answer, but I would not even report the foul (unless flagrant) in that specific situation

APG Tue Oct 22, 2013 08:18am

Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 908264)
Yes. (NFHS)

First situation: wipe the shot, as it was released late. Award the free throws with the lane cleared. If the end of the game, and the shots will not affect the final score, report the foul and that's it.

Second situation: ignore the foul unless intentional or flagrant.

I would say in situation one, you only wipe the shot off if you don't have definite knowledge of how much time should be on the clock at the time of the foul. Otherwise if you do (have knowledge), put that time back on the clock and count the basket if applicable.

Camron Rust Tue Oct 22, 2013 07:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by APG (Post 908278)
I would say in situation one, you only wipe the shot off if you don't have definite knowledge of how much time should be on the clock at the time of the foul. Otherwise if you do (have knowledge), put that time back on the clock and count the basket if applicable.

Agree.

AremRed Tue Oct 22, 2013 08:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by APG (Post 908278)
I would say in situation one, you only wipe the shot off if you don't have definite knowledge of how much time should be on the clock at the time of the foul. Otherwise if you do (have knowledge), put that time back on the clock and count the basket if applicable.

Correct, I was envisioning the situation in the OP being so close that the timer didn't have time to stop the clock, but it was clear that the horn went off before the shot. Unless you have definite (read: looking at the clock) knowledge of the time left, you can't put time back on the clock.

Raymond Tue Oct 22, 2013 09:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 908352)
Correct, I was envisioning the situation in the OP being so close that the timer didn't have time to stop the clock, but it was clear that the horn went off before the shot. Unless <s>you</s> the crew has <s>have</s> definite (read: looking at the clock) knowledge of the time left, you can't put time back on the clock.

We sometimes forget to get information from all parties.

AremRed Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:31pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 908356)
We sometimes forget to get information from all parties.

The "you" in my post is plural :D

billyu2 Wed Oct 23, 2013 07:30am

be specific
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 908362)
The "you" in my post is plural :D

Then you should have said, "ya'll" or "you-uns":)

maven Wed Oct 23, 2013 09:47am

Quote:

Originally Posted by billyu2 (Post 908374)
Then you should have said, "ya'll" or "you-uns":)

Or, in some parts, "all y'all." :)

just another ref Wed Oct 23, 2013 09:50am

Has anyone ever seen the OP actually happen?

1. I know the foul was before the buzzer.

2. I know the release was after the buzzer, so the basket doesn't count but we still shoot.

As written, this is the way it is. But there is a fundamental flaw here. If I know the above things are true, then I also know that the clock should have stopped with some small amount of time still showing. If this is not the case, the airborne shooter should be allowed to finish his try regardless of when the buzzer sounded if he is fouled. Perhaps an editorial revision/minor rule change is in order.

bob jenkins Wed Oct 23, 2013 09:53am

Yes I have seen it, and I disagree that there is a fundamental flaw. I do understand the logic, and wouldn't necessarily be opposed to a change, but any time you choose to put back on the clock is just as arbitrary as zero.

just another ref Wed Oct 23, 2013 09:56am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 908402)
Yes I have seen it, and I disagree that there is a fundamental flaw. I do understand the logic, and wouldn't necessarily be opposed to a change, but any time you choose to put back on the clock is just as arbitrary as zero.

If there was a change, I wouldn't be for putting time back on the clock, but rather that an airborne shooter be allowed to finish after being fouled, even if the finish is after the buzzer.

Adam Wed Oct 23, 2013 09:59am

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 908401)
Has anyone ever seen the OP actually happen?

1. I know the foul was before the buzzer.

2. I know the release was after the buzzer, so the basket doesn't count but we still shoot.

As written, this is the way it is. But there is a fundamental flaw here. If I know the above things are true, then I also know that the clock should have stopped with some small amount of time still showing. If this is not the case, the airborne shooter should be allowed to finish his try regardless of when the buzzer sounded if he is fouled. Perhaps an editorial revision/minor rule change is in order.

I have seen it, once, and I ruled incorrectly.

Camron Rust Wed Oct 23, 2013 03:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 908406)
If there was a change, I wouldn't be for putting time back on the clock, but rather that an airborne shooter be allowed to finish after being fouled, even if the finish is after the buzzer.

That would be good...and the "right" solution.

With the presence of the foul, the shooter may have been able to release the shot before the buzzer. As such, it isn't entirely fair or just to not allow them to complete the shot if fouled before the horn.


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