Airborne Shooter purposely drops ball
 

Airborne shooter thinking shot will be blocked, purposely drops the ball while at the height of his jump without attempting a shooting motion.

Loose Ball or Double Dribble? Any Why?

Generally a travel. Once the pivot is lifted, the ball must be released on a pass or a try. 4-44-3,4

By definition, a player cannot pass to himself. 4-31-1

He's airborne, but not a shooter unless he releases the ball for a try.

I'm not calling anything unless he's the first to touch it after he "passes" it.

Travel. Even think there is a case play about this very thing.

4.44.3B

I agree with Adam that I won't call anything unless s/he is the first to touch the ball.

I agree. Not an automatic whistle. He must touch the ball first.

Who You Gonna Call ???
 

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6230/6...473e048e_m.jpg

The shooter can retrieve his or her own airball, if the referee considers it to be a shot attempt. The release ends team control. It is not a violation for that player to start another dribble at that point. When an airborne player keeps control of an attempted shot that is blocked and is unable to release the ball and returns to the floor with it, that player has not traveled; it is a held ball. If, in this situation, the shooter loses control of the ball because of the block, then this is simply a blocked shot and play continues. If, in this situation, the defender simply touches the ball, and the airborne shooter returns to the floor holding the ball, it’s a traveling violation. When an airborne player tries for goal, sees that the try will be blocked, purposely drops the ball, and picks up the ball after it hits the floor, that player has traveled by starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor.

As stated by others... dropping the ball is not yet a travel. Dropping it and then being the first to touch it is travelling.

Yep. Dropping the ball in that situation effectively turns the play into a pass. There’s no violation unless A1 is the first to touch the ball.

If no one eventually touches it, the dropping the ball actually was the start of another dribble and that was the point of the violation....not the subsequent touch. However, when it is such that it may be a pass or may be a dribble, we traditionally wait until the next touch to confirm what action it was.

In a few cases, it might be so obvious that the official would not need to wait to determine that it was released for a dribble.

The definition of a pass includes the phrase: "to another player". If there is no other player in the vicinity, and the ball is dropped straight to the floor, to me it is not a pass.

My point exactly.

And the definition of a dribble is pushing the ball to the floor. It says nothing about it having to come back up. In fact, nothing about the definition of a dribble even requires that they touch it again.

... And No One Is There To Catch It ...
 

Devil's advocate here. Intent, or result? So a player makes a lead "pass" to a teammate who hits a screen and can't get to where he wants to be to receive the "pass"? Is it a pass?

Kind of like that tree falls in a forest question.

First, the OP states the player "drops" the ball. If we're going to start picking nits here, then "drop" is not included in the definition of a dribble. Pushing, throwing, and batting are included, but not dropping.

Regardless.

Players make passes all the time to a spot where there is no teammate; often in anticipation that a teammate will retrieve the ball. If the airborne player drops the ball, 99% of the time he's going to land and stand there waiting for a teammate to retrieve the ball. That's a pass, even if the teammate takes a few seconds to get there.

In this case, it is both. His intent is to avoid a traveling violation. He knows he can't return to the floor holding the ball, so he drops it straight to the floor. I would give the player a benefit of any small doubt, but he must at least look for a teammate and make some effort to push the ball in that direction, as opposed to dropping it straight to the floor.

If you're going to let him get away with this, you could just as easily say it was still a try.

Wow, regardless of one's opinion on whether this is a pass or dribble, calling it a try is not 'just as easy.'

That was an extreme way to word it, but the bottom line is the same.

It's not going in the basket. It's not a try. If it's dropped straight to the floor, it's also not going "to another player", so it's not a pass.

And it wasn't pushed, batted, or thrown, so it's not a dribble.

throw: propel (something) with force through the air by a movement of the arm and hand


The release is the movement by the arm/hand. The force is supplied by gravity.

This statement makes no sense at all. His intent is to avoid a travelling violation so he drops the ball, which is a travelling violation. :confused: If his intent is to avoid a travelling violation then he drops the ball in hopes that a teammate will come retrieve it.

Hope that a teammate will retrieve does not, for me, define a pass.

You said it yourself. He dropped the ball. This is a travelling violation.

You said he dropped it to avoid a travelling violation, which means he is passing the ball.

You didn't say he pushed, batted, or threw the ball to the ground.

I don't care how you twist your way into it, dropping does not equal throwing, pushing, or batting.

I have never seen a player drop the ball and not obviously expect his teammate to come get it. The fact is, there is no way to know what he's trying to do when he drops it. So, I'm going to assume it's a pass until something happens to tell me otherwise (such as him being the first to touch it after he releases the ball).

Allowing gravity to force the ball down is the opposite of forcing it down one's self. This is NOT a dribble. Period.

In fact, the act is usually followed by A1 trying to "box out" defenders from getting the ball.

"Drop" is just a very weak throw/push. :p

So, let me get this straight.

I can hold the ball, drop it. Catch it after the bounce. Drop it again. Catch it again. Drop it again. Catch it again. And, since dropping it is not a dribble, it is not a dribble. Wow....this could be a very useful tactic!!!

Fumble,. Fumble, Fumble ???
 

Good point, great extreme example, I love pushing the limits of various rules, but I will still wait to see what happens next, and will only call the violation if he is the first to touch.

Now? Is a drop the same as a fumble? Can we read minds, and determine intent?

You argue like this is political debate... read words, interpret them the way you want, then argue with that interpretation even if you know your interpretation is not what the other person meant.

That sort of argument is a waste of everyone's time and effort. This is not politics, this is not a debate. It's an officiating discussion board, where we're all trying to get better.
_______
I did not say dropping the ball and catching it is not a dribble. I said "this" - the situation we're talking about (well, the situation we WERE talking about until you decided to insert a completely different scenario in its place and apply my statement to it). In the situation we're talking about, dropping the ball and not picking it up is not a dribble. You tried to imply that it was because Gravity is a Force, and you saw the word force in the rule. (Frankly ... another example of what you did to my post)

If you're simply here to out-debate us or win an argument, I'm not interested. If you're interested in discussing what rules apply here, please do so.

Isn't there a rule that states a player cannot be the 1st to touch his own airball even if it is a shooting attempt? Was it NBA?

It's the NBA, and only the NBA.

Okay, we made this into a word game, which was not beneficial to the discussion. I think this is all about intent at the time of the release, just as it is when the player is fouled. A1 dropped the ball because he knew he couldn't return to the floor with it. It wasn't a try. It wasn't a fumble. And unless there is a teammate right next to him to pick it up, I can't call it a pass. By default, it is a dribble.

Think Of A Number, Any Number ...
 

Are you guessing, or did you ask him? Or, did you read his mind?

I think it's something that can't yet be determined, as opposed to defaulting to "it must be a dribble".

Then apply the rules as they are written, not as you invent new words to put in so it will fit what you want it to be. Quit looking for ways to weasel out of blowing the whistle.

A dribble starts when it leaves the hands. There is no part of the definition that suggests otherwise. A pass also starts when it leaves the hands. The difference is only in the judgement in whether it is going to the floor or to another player.

My example was merely offered to expose the fallacy in the points being made about the play in question.

That's not what it says. It says it starts when it's thrown or pushed to the floor. Dropping is neither throwing nor pushing. If we're going to start parsing definitions, I think we need to start there.

4.43.3A and B are plays similar to the one being discussed here. In both, the play description includes A1 touching the ball.

That's not definitive of course (as it would be if the ruling said "violation once A1 touches the ball" or "violation immediately upon dropping the ball"). Still, absent any specifics, it's enough for me to judge that if I'm the calling official, I'm waiting until it's touched.

And, if you are watching the play out of your area, and come to me because you think I might have kicked a rules issue, I'm going to send you a nasty email citing the need not to interfere in another official's jurisdiction. Sorry. Wrong thread.

By definition, though, it's not. At this moment in time, it's none of the above. Until we see who touches it next, it's status is not yet known, and thus this is not yet a violation.

What exactly is pushing then? Exactly how much force is required for it to be a push.


When the ball leaves a players hands under their control, it is only one of three things...a try, a pass, or a dribble and it is such the moment it leaves their hands. The differences is entirely in intent and judging which is what we get paid for. Some will bring up the point about not judging intent but that doesn't really work because you have to judge intent when it comes to a try when determining if it is a shooting foul or whether they payer can retrieve an air ball. If you can determine that, it really isn't a stretch to expect an official to be able to tell if it is a dribble or a pass based on how it is released.

If it is remotely to another player, I'm OK with calling it a pass. But when it is clearly not to another player when it leaves the hands, and the player only put the ball on the floor with no teammate anywhere near to avoid getting it blocked, that defender that forced the action deserves violation call.

That is where you're wrong. It is one of the above whether you're able to tell or not. I can usually tell. If not, I wait for more information to be sure.

Third Choice ???
 

A bounce pass does both.

But in a different direction. I've never seen a bounce pass that goes straight down or even nearly straight down.

Do I Use The Tangent, Or The Cosine ???
 

You're probably right. Let me whip out my protractor.

does it matter if it's a pass or dribble unless the player just caught the ball while in the air (from a pass or rebound), since you can't catch your own pass and you can't dribble if you got the ball before jumping.

if it was an alleyoop or rebound he probably can do start a dribble.

Probably ??? Not ...
 

Not if he's already lifted his pivot foot for a try, or a pass (which is what this thread is all about).

I don't know what you are asking.

What I think you're asking: "Why are you guys arguing about whether it's a pass or a dribble since either one is illegal?"

If that is correct, then you are right that once A1 touches the ball the play is illegal. But if it's (determined to be) a pass, then it's not illegal until it's touched by A1. If it's (determined to be) a dribble, then it *might* be illegal as soon as A1 begins the dribble. And, you *might* not be able to determine which it is until later (or maybe you can make such a determination). That's the focus of the discussion.

No "probably" about it, and also not the play we are discussing.

Well since the initial post did not state what happened before the player dropped the ball, whether he ended a dribble & jumped or he received the ball while airborne, i just though i took it into consideration on a 2nd case where no pivot has yet been established.

assuming the player established a pivot before he jumped, the player can't dribble anymore because he already lifted his pivot before releasing the ball so it'd be a travel right?

unless he merely came into contact with the ball while on the floor & yet catch/secure the ball and only manage to do it while already airborne, this case he hasn't established a pivot until he has landed, so he can actually just hold the ball until he land or "drop" the ball as a mean to start a dribble.

If the player received a pass while airborne there would have been no reason for this discussion.

well it could still be a violation if he touched his own pass. but if he dropped the ball & touches it would you see it as a violation or just treat it as a dribble?

Depends on different things, for example:

1) if he dribbled already
2) did he pick up his pivot foot before releasing the ball

No, it wouldn't.

There is no rule about "catching your own pass." there is a rule about moving your pivot foot which is what USUALLY happens. But when it doesn't ...

Why?