Protective Gear Really Needed?
 

Karl Malone speaks his mind.....

Y! SPORTS

From the article:

"I'm not concerned with your elbow pads, your knee pads, all of your garb and your full body armor. What do you need all that for? Our soldiers need that in Iraq and they're doing a hell of a job for us. Take all that off! We don't need that. What I need you to do is show up and be ready to play. That's it."

I didn't listen to Karl Malone 20 years ago when the issue was HIV in the NBA, I am not listening to him now. ;)

Peace

Point/Counterpoint
 

Given that this extra stuff players are wearing (legheadcompressionwristarmsleeveband) represents nothing more than an expression of individuality with scant evidence that it is either needed ("That is for a medical reason, isn't it?" validation nothwithstanding...) or improves personal performance to any measurable extent, I'm likin' what Karl Malone is saying here. His quote deserves recognition in the anti-fashion police hall of fame. Wish NFHS would just get it over with and ban all that stuff.
But that's just me.
Will never happen, though.

Or the NFHS could just get over it and not delegate officials to be the fashion police besides the bare minimum (jerseys with same color and with numbers on them, and shorts/pants) and only concern us with things that affect safety. ;)

I think those knee pads with paddings, or inner shirt with paddings, or crotch protector can actually help reduce the impact, pain & injury during collision.

Even a normal elbow pad would help when the player's falling flat.

Or maybe Karl Malone just still holding a grudge with Michael Jordan and hoping by banning these stuffs may hurt Jordan Brand in selling a few hundred extra arm & knee pads.

I saw the interview on the local news. My take was that instead of being prissy/sissy, the new breed of players need to suck it up and play basketball.

Then boxing fighters shouldn't be wearing boxing glooves & head gear & suck it up.

I agree completely. Being a fashion cop in a basketball game has so little to do with the game itself, except for the fact that it is part of the uniform, and by definition of the word "uniform", it means remaining the same in all cases and at all times., hence the name uniform, etc...

Long story longer, I see Federation's point, and while I don't agree with it, as an official, I have to and will enforce it as necessary.

Or it allows them to be more physical with less concern about getting hurt in the process. Take the pads off both players and you just might see them both back the physicality down a notch.

Inquiring Minds Want To Know ...
 

Regarding elbow, and knee, pads. Is there a difference, in terms of NFHS rules, between a compression sleeve (arm, or leg) with a pad, and one without a pad, in terms of medical need, color, etc. I'll be taking the Fashion Police detective's exam in a few weeks and need to get this straight.

That’s a good question. On the NCAAW side of things I’m going to ask my FNI (Friendly Neighborhood Interpreter). He’ll know or at least he should be able to find out since he’s going to be the Secretary-Rules Editor as of next September.

As for NFHS, I think an e-mail to my local interpreter is in order as well.

While you're asking, maybe you can ask about this question from the test:

Question #12
A player shall not take a position so close to a moving opponent that this opponent cannot avoid contact by stopping or changing directions
a. True
b. False

As written, it's clearly false (time and distance aren't needed when guarding a player with the ball).

But, since screens are a POE (or whatever), and since the wording in the question is a direct quote from 4-34-3, I'm thinking that they meant the question to apply to screens, which would make it true.

Sorry, Bob. He’s sworn to secrecy for a few weeks :). I think our group is going over the exam next Wednesday so I’ll have answer that night.

He reminded us this is the last year we get help from him. Next year he makes the exam. He’s also a teacher in real life so beware!

4-24-5 b seems to be the Rule that evoked the wording of this question. It does not mention an opponent "with the ball", and the (usually) simplistic choice of questions on the test indicate an answer of True.

NCAAW 4-24 is "Pass", and there is no 4-24-5 b (nor 4-34-5 b)

Answers...
 

http://i44.tinypic.com/jze2i0.jpghttp://i42.tinypic.com/k1p5e1.jpg

From my FNI: In NCAAW, these items come under the sleeve rules and regulations (and I only wish my arms/legs were this muscular).

From my FNI, IAABO interpreter version: I’m told the ruling is the same as NCAAW. Whether it truly is the same on the national level remains to be seen but that’s what I’m dealing with in my neck of the woods.

When Karl Malone admits that he intentionally elbowed Isaiah Thomas in the face, then I'll listen to anything else he has to say.

Curiosity Killed The Cat, But Not The Basketball Official ...
 

Thanks JetMetFan.

How about the more "primitive" elbow, and knee, pads that have less of a "sleeve" look and more of a "pad" look, knee pads that I never concerned myself with in the past, before we had color restrictions on anything below the waist.

http://ts2.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.47877...67529&pid=15.1

I can comfortably say in NCAAW those don’t have any color restrictions. My FNI said Debbie Williamson already ruled on the “volleyball-style” pads last year. As for NFHS, I can’t see why there would be any color issues with the old-school padding.

Reasonable, Rational, And Accommodating ...
 

Thanks again. Certainly sounds reasonable, rational, within the spirit of the rules, and accommodating to the players, and to the parents, who purchase such pads. But, really, seriously, do officials expect NFHS Fashion Police rules to be reasonable, rational, and accommodating?

and people were saying NBA is getting less & less physical.

but you'd never know when a collision may take place, intentionally or non-intentionally and it might just cause a career breaking injury.

it's like bikers wearing exoskeleton suits vs those that only wear helmets, it's their choice since it's an safety issue. as long as they don't wear spiked elbow pads i don't see a problem since the pads protects both players in contact by absorbing the force.

Pads allow both player to go at each other harder without being as worried about injuring themselves.

Imagine how football would change if players were not allowed to wear pads or helmets. You'd probably see fewer major injuries as players wouldn't hit with such recklessness.

Sorry, Bob, I was referencing NFHS, and missed the subject of NCAAW.

I think they call that rugby. :p

And there are still some major hits in rugby. Not as many, but check out highlights of the "All Blacks" when you have time.

And thus it begins...
 

Boys middle school championship tonight (they play MS before the HS season due to shortage of officials ) Fed Rules. Home team is in white. They are wearing black leg sleeves, blue leg sleeves (a school color), one kid with black knee pads (old school style mentioned above) black arm sleeves and one player with a grey (gray?) undershirt.

Visitors were in red. They are wearing black leg sleeves, red leg sleeves and no arm sleeves that we noticed.

We told both coaches to pick a color sleeve for arms and legs and go with it. Of course both coaches claimed they were wearing these combinations all year..."and what about them? they are wearing both". Yes coach, we are telling them the same thing. Of course the home team goes with the blue leg sleeves and the kid with the knee pads (black) keeps them on. We have to explain to the visiting coach the difference. Additionally, the kid with the grey undershirt starts to strip his shirt off at the bench...whoa junior...take it to the locker room.

This drill took up pretty much the entire warm up period. It would have been a great example for the case book. What a cluster ****.

All this...and it's only middle school. I couldn't make up a more ridiculous scenario if I tried. In the end...home team gets to a running clock and we get out of Dodge in about an hour and a half. I hope this isn't a preview of the season.

Attaboy!
 

I, for one, am proud of you.
Worth the effort if all of us would just do it all the time, cuz then we wouldn't any of us have to do it any of the time.

Not necessarily true. Some have either short memories, or are just stubborn. Try telling blue #13 that he's not allowed to wear that white t-shirt under his jersey. He'll go and take it off if he has to, but chances are good that he'll have it on again next week.

Let's all say it together:

"Everybody else lets me wear it."

Right or Wrong...around these parts, we usually just let different colored undershirts go for Middle School.

We do, however, make them keep their shirts tucked in and their pants pulled up. ;)

In addition, I explain to the coaches what is expected, (concerning uniforms), when the kids get to the H.S. level.

Well Basketball is a physical game, the pads are there to prevent more frequent injuries, usually light ones, it's unlikely going to save you from a direct collision. It also makes certain cheap moves like Elbowing with elbow pads ineffective thus discouraging it.

As long as they wear matching colors with their jerseys, i don't see it a really big problem.

They might seem unnecessarily from the official point of view and a handful of retired pros like Karl, you might probably want to question the compulsory requirements for Safety Airbags & seatbelts in cars and such since without them drivers would most likely drive safer, resulting in less accidents.

He'll have it on next week because too many of the everyone else does let him wear it. If no one ever let him, he'd quit trying.

Bravo. That's all I can say. Bravo. My head hurt just reading all of this.

If I was a coach I think I'd make a chart and hang it in the locker room so players would know what accessories they can wear based on their uniform of the day.

There's More With That Came From ...
 

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7359/1...48e2e122_m.jpg

Source: Freddy

Can someone give me the rules reference for the protective padding and such? I missed it somewhere. I thought the only one who could wear padding was the backboard.

NFHS 3-5-2 probably deals with it best:

There really isn’t anything specific to elbow or knee pads. The generic concern is whatever a player wears can’t be a danger to anyone or provide an unfair advantage to the person wearing the padding. Basically if the rules don’t specifically say a player can’t wear something – or that a player has to wear something a specific way – then they can.

So I guess the general consensus is that knee pads, elbow pads, and other preventative padding are all legal. In my mind I guess I was reading the rule as : All of the listed equipment are for protection of an existing healing injury and/or prevention of re-injury to said "Medical reason." I was reading it as prevention of a first time injury (ie kneepads) as one thing and protection of an existing injury (ie healing strained ACL with knee brace) as another.

How can knee pads be "worn for medical reasons" if no injury exists? Thoughts?

Why are you associating knee/elbow pads with "medical reasons"? There is no rule dictating how or why they are worn or what color is worn (which seems pretty odd now that I think about it).

From the quoted rule:

e. Must be worn for medical reasons.

That is kind of my point. I don't see where they are allowed for non medical reasons. They aren't part of the uniform and there is no clause to allow equipment for prevention of a non existant injury. And what bob said.

Knee pads and elbow pads are not guards, casts, or braces and therefore are not covered by that rule.

I'm thinking that, since it doesn't say knee and elbow pads can't be worn, they are permissable.

I agree with that -- I was only answering the "why do you associate it with medical devices" question.

I think it's covered under 3-5-1 and 3-5-5. Also comment 3.5A (from last year's book, at least)

Just like compression sleeves were never mentioned in the rules and now only are mentioned for color purposes mostly now. What is not said to be illegal, is legal.

Peace

What about gloves?

Specifically indicated as illegal in the case book (iirc)

You should get others "around these parts" to start enforcing it at the MS level. Then you'll be less likely to have to enforce it at the upper levels.

Oh I don't now. Around here, it largely depends on the league (small school vs. big school) and the assigner. High school is all one assigner, and none of the schools have any issues.

The coaches don't move up with the players, so the HS coaches already know the requirements.

If I Had A Dime For Every Girlfriend Who Said That ???
 

... nor are they necessarily sleeves, however some arm sleeves, and leg sleeves, have built in pads, in which case, they are sleeves.

Anybody got a couple of aspirin? I normally don't mind monitoring Fashion Police issues, but please, let's keep it above the waist.

We're Rebels In Connecticut, Rebels ...
 

We've been told that, not withstanding what the NFHS, or IAABO (International) have to say about it, Connecticut (100% IAABO) officials will allow protective headgear (below) to be worn in basketball games, with no color restrictions.

http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.45076...85968&pid=15.1

Isn't preventive measures to avoid injuries sort of a medical reason?

Hey Doc, how bout a couple of prescriptions for morphine and lortab. I might get injured and have pain sometime in the future. My answer is no. Nothing listed in any of the rules or case book mentions anything that has to do with prevention of injury. All of them are for treatment or protection of an existing injury. That's why I brought up gloves. They would be for protection and they are specifically banned in the case book as they are not necessary to play the game. IMO neither are helmets, knee pads or elbow pads (or arm sleeves or leg sleeves either).

The difference is gloves can provide a distinct, direct advantage. Knee pads may provide an advantage (allowing a player to be a bit more reckless), but it's not nearly as direct as wearing, for example, wide receiver's gloves.

You said it.^^^

The case book states: 'The second standard provides that "any equipment which is unnatural and designed to increase the player's height or vertical reach, or to gain a competitive advantage, shall not be used."'

But I guess if they are allowed and everyone wears them there is no advantage gained.

Worse Than Childbirth ...
 

It happens.

During my most recent kidney stone attack (my third one), I was screaming all the way to the hospital, I yelled at my brother-in-law to go through every red light, and as soon as I got into the emergency room, I started screaming for morphine. I swear, if I couldn't get painkillers, and if I had a gun, I would have shot myself.

Fast forward. Knowing that I will probably have another attack, I asked my doctor for a prescription for oxycodone, to take care of the pain while on the way to the nearest hospital emergency room. He gave me a few pills for home, and a few to put in my locker at work.

The intent there is equipment that has a direct advantage, such as shoes with springs or shoes that make a player several inches taller.

Is there a limit how thick the soles of a shoe has to be?

Kobe System 8 generally gives a boost of 2.5" height which is on the high side, i've seen some Air Max shoes giving like 3" boost.

Ah, I think the rules are simply trying to outlaw these:

http://www.geekalerts.com/u/moon-shoes1.jpg

Nothing specific and as long as the shoes are commercially available I won't really be checking, either.

If gloves aren't allowed, why do NBA allow finger bands that increases a person's grip? Reggie Miller wears that, so does Allen Iverson. It's pretty similar to tennis/golf players that wear them to increase the grip.

Do you have a citation for that information?

The part where Reggie Miller & Iverson wears finger band,

or the part where NBA allows wearing finger band,

or the part where finger band improves grip?

Because the NBA has decided it's okay or not enough of an advantage worthy of banning.

Yes.

I'm not sure that's what they are (or are for), but it's entirely possible that the NBA rules are different from the NCAA/ FED rules -- and if I saw something that was designed to "increase the grip" I wouldn't allow them in my games.

Reggie Miller and AI still play in the NBA?

well they used to wear them when they were still in the game.

they call it finger band, finger support, finger protector whatever they call it for medical reason, but i have seen similar finger protector for golfers that claims improve grip.

"Well everybody else needed the night off tonight, so you're stuck with me, and if you want to play, you'll have to remove it."

Do you let them wear belts to keep their shorts up too??:D

V scrimmage last weekend, I had a player with long socks that appeared to have knee pads sewn in at the tops......and, me thinks it's only going to get worse.

Oh, happy happy, joy joy!!!! We all know that it's just going to get worse fashion-police wise. Ugh! I just wish that the NF would get out of the fashion bizness.

Pads Sown Into A Sleeve, That Could Be A Problem ...
 

Socks (always legal, all colors) are not the same as sleeves, just like tights (always illegal) are not the same a sleeves. Knee pads (always legal, all colors) are also legal. So, what's the problem? Move along folks. Nothing to see here.