What would you do?
 

My friend had this happen to him in a 7th Grade A Team game (NFHS Rules). What would you do? Here goes: A1 makes a basket. After the ball goes through the basket, B1 picks it up and begins dribbling it down court towards their basket and crosses half court and passes off for B2 to take a shot.

What would you do? Blow the whistle as soon as B1 took the ball and started towards their basket giving them the opportunity to take the ball and inbound it? Would you stay at the endline and begin a 5-second count? If you did begin a count and B1 or B2 tried to come back to inbound the ball properly, is it a backcourt violation?

This question has produced alot of discussion as to what the proper decision would be. Needless to say, the coaches had questions too. We can't find anything in the rule or case book on this issue, but maybe you can.

What do you think?

Ther is either a current case or an annual interp (see the thread on that) to the effect that it's an immediate violation.

This play (or a variant of it) has been discussed since approximately 30 minutes after Al Gore invented the interwebs.

There is a case book or interpretation that has been made on this play. It was a few years ago that it was made. It is out there, I'll leave it to someone else (you) to dig a little deeper to find it.

Before the ruling, there was the same disagreement as you're experiencing...count to 5 or violation right away or blow the whistle and instruct them that it is a throwin.

The ruling...as soon as they turn up court without making a proper throwin, it is a throwin violation. Do not wait for 5 seconds to elapse.

No backcourt violation because the ball was never in play. At that level you could either blow the whistle and point to the player to properly inbound the ball, or start a 5-second count, depending on how generous and/or teachable you are feeling.

In a HS Varsity or college game I think it is a violation right away.

Playing under NFHS rules, this is a violation immediately (as noted).
7th grade? I'd probably kill the play and bring them back, depending on the talent level on the court. Counting to 5 is not an option, though.

9.2.2.c

Be A Plumber ...
 

9.2.2 SITUATION C: A1 scores a basket. After the ball goes through the net, B1
grabs it and makes a move toward the end line as though preparing to make a
throw-in. However, B1 never legally steps out of bounds, both feet remain
inbounds. B1 immediately passes the ball up the court to a fast-breaking teammate,
who scores a basket. RULING: Cancel Team B's goal, throw-in violation on
B1. The ball was at B1's disposal after the made basket to make a throw-in. B1
must be out of bounds to make a legal throw-in. (7-4-3; 7-5-7)

This is what my partner & I did in our 7th grade game last week.

If your suggestion is not to call this a violation (not necessarily the OP) then I would disagree. This is likely obvious to someone observing they did not step out of bounds. And it prevents situations of sloppiness when the game is on the line. And for the record, the NCAA addressed this as well with video and made it clear we should call these violations anytime seen. And if you look at what happened a few years ago near the end of a game when this was not called, and the shit storm that followed, I think we should call these when they happen.

Peace

There Only Twelve Years Old ...
 

JRutledge: I have to agree with you, it's pretty difficult to argue against a NFHS casebook play. I would call this violation on any level of high school basketball, freshman, junior varsity, or varsity.

But these are seventh graders, not NCAA players. You don't work seventh grade games. I do. Early in the season, and early the game, I would be very likely to blow my whistle and call a do-over, after instructing the players on how to correctly make the throwin. Later in the season, or later in the game, I would be very likely to call the violation, also instructing the players on how to correctly make the throwin. In all cases, I would not ignore the play.

I am also 100% certain that I would be backed by my Catholic middle school assigner. These seventh grade games are referred to as "junior varsity" games and, although competitive, these are also instructional games.

What better instruction than calling a violation? I am sure they would learn not to do that again.

Seventh Grade Basketball, I'm What You Call An Expert ...
 

That would certainly be one way of instructing these twelve year old players, and I would not have any problem with anybody handling it that way. But like I said, first game of the season, first period, confused players, I'm not ignoring the play, I'm sounding my whistle, telling them the right way to do it, and giving them do-over. Keep in mind that this is a league in which officials can use their judgment if some of the younger players on the "junior varsity" team go over the free throw line because they can't reach the basket from fifteen feet. That's the way we roll here in our Catholic middle school league, but I can certainly see where others may handle their seventh grade games differently.

Wait a minute. Do we have two Forum members posting under the name AremRed?

Elementary, and Junior High, I am stopping play and bringing them back for a proper throw in, once, and explaining the correct thing to do. After that I am calling a violation. All other levels no warning, it's a violation.

Nope, just one. I agreed it is a teachable moment at that level, I simply pointed out they could learn from the violation being called, or the play being whistled back to try again. No inconsistency here.

This:

Seems like common sense to me. Falls into the same category as getting them lined up for free throws properly...certainly not by the book, but I'm looking to help teach the game at this level.

Why are we treating this different then any other violation? And it is not ticky-tack, it is obvious.

This is the same age of kids that knows how to download files better then their parents and we think they cannot handle what not to do on a throw-in?

Peace

I think you have to read the game to know. Some times they should know better, sometimes they're barely able to hold the ball. At those levels, you have to call the game to a level that they specific players in the game are ready for.

I do not disagree, but this is a basic rule. I do not think you need to treat this any different then other violations if obvious. If it is borderline I get maybe passing, but not if it is obvious. Then again I work almost none of these games so it is not a big deal to me. I just do not see why this is so special. When I worked these games I had no problem making this call. It usually did not happen again after a call.

Peace

The Wacky World Of Seventh Grade Basketball ...
 

Since you don't work these games, you have no idea what goes on in them, especially early in the season. In my area, seventh graders in Catholic middle school play in what is known as a "junior varsity" league, which can include kids that have never played organized basketball before. In that first week of play, and often into subsequent weeks, after a score, the new offensive players will often look like a deer in the headlights, and will look to me, as the new trail, for guidance. I just wave to them and tell them take the ball out of bounds. Sometimes it's due to them waiting for the "designated official inbounder" on the team, who, at the time, may be on the bench. For kids who transition from playing basketball on a Little Tikes six foot basket in their back yard, to playing organized five on five basketball in front of a crowd, the rules can be very confusing. The coaches do the best job that they can in the couple of weeks before the season, but it can still be confusing for some kids, especially those kids on the end of the bench, who probably don't get a lot of reps in practice, but according to league rules, have to play in the game.

Actually Billy I have worked those games often over my career. I even did an IESA (the only state Elementary State Organization in the country) Sectional a few years ago. So yes I have worked these games and did so often. I just do not do them now and as a regular part of my schedule because of other opportunities I have gained over the years. And yes, I have called similar things in the past when the opportunity was there. I just do not think this is one of these "It is junior high....." crap that people love to say that should be so drastically different. It is a violation. Yes you see goofy stuff at that level, but I do not see why officials treat it like we have to teach them everything by stopping the game. I have worked football with much younger kids in some cases and we call everything that needs to be called and those rules are a lot more complicated. Basketball how hard is it to know the ball has to be throw-in out of bounds? Sounds simple to me.

Peace

Different Strokes By Different Folks (Sly And The Family Stone) ...
 

I already knew that, which is exactly why I used the present tense in my recent post.

It's not junior high, it's middle school, on top of that, it's low level (seventh grade, refereed to as middle school "junior varsity" here) middle school. And I can't speak for others who posted that a do-over might be warranted, but if I'm going with a do-over it will only be early in the season, and early in the game, and won't be afforded to the kids who appear to know what they're doing out there, just the confused, "deer in the headlights" kids.

We're "stopping" the game if we go with the violation (which I have no problem with), or going with a do-over. I'm not ignoring this play, I'm sounding the whistle, "stopping" the game, and going with either a violation, or a do-over. This play has to be addressed, either with a violation, as you suggest, and as I suggest, depending on the circumstance, or a do-over.

In the original post, not sounding the whistle, and not "stopping" the game, is simply not an option for me. On the other hand, if the kids are just standing around and looking confused, then I can, hopefully, use hand gestures, and some simple verbal directions, to get them to do it the right way in less than five (a very long five) seconds.

It's 7th grade basketball. Blow the whistle as soon as they grab ball and tell the player what to do. IMO we are not only enforcing the rules but coaching a little bit in the younger grades. I've never had an opposing coach get upset for helping out on a play like that.

Sorry Billy, regardless of whether I agree with the rest of your position (I do), this part is just silly. 7th grade is 7th grade, whether you call it Jr. High, Middle School, or high school. Many places refer to it as Jr. High, many call it middle school. To quote the old Gordman's commercial, "IT'S THE SAME THING!"

Not that I would get on anyone either way, but the players would get just as much out of you calling a violation or doing it your way.

I agree, and I probably approach this the way Billy does. To be honest, I'm more likely to just call it in 7th grade. If I'm doing some younger stuff, I'll be more likely to coach. I am not, however, there to coach. That's why they have coaches. I'll work with the kids a bit, but honestly, in most 7th grade games in my area, the players are not in their first year of basketball.

I have never had a coach go nuts when you call a violation (against the other team). Most coaches are yelling for something anyway and like it when you call things. After all, they think it is the NBA and everything that takes place must be called.

Peace

The school that I attended was called Edison Junior High School when I started 7th grade. Soon after I left high school, they moved the 6th-8th over the high school and they still call that (Town name) Jr/Sr High School. Not sure what the heck he is talking about? Never even referred to this age level as middle school. And I have enough sense to know it is the same thing, but never called it that way.

Peace

I had a coach yell at me last week because I called a back court violation ... on the opposing team. :confused:

A1 is in her front court and decides to make an uncontested drive to the wrong basket. As soon as she crossed half court, I whistled the violation but nobody stopped. I blew the whistle again more emphatically and that's when Coach B voiced her displeasure.

Boy would that be a quick discussion, probably egged on by a sideways look from me. Or, if I'm feeling particularly annoyed, "So, you want me to ignore an obvious violation so you can gain two cheap points?"

They may know how to operate an IPhone better than I can ... but many of them have managed to make the A-team, and after 3 weeks of practice still don't know they can't dribble with both hands, or they can't stop a dribble and then dribble again.

That might be the case is some places, but not in the places that I am familiar (and I am not talking about Chicago area either). Basketball is life here. Kids learn to dribble as toddlers. Basketball is king and kids grow up doing very basic things. I just do not see why it would be hard to understand if you call a violation?

Peace

Wow, 7th grade basketball must be really bad where you are at.

Absolutely.

I have worked travel ball with players this young and they do amazing things. There is always a kid that could out dribble many high school players and the ball is bigger then their head.

Peace

Wow, most of the 7th grade games around here involve a little more talent and experience than that.

Deer In The Headlights ...
 

It's not a big deal but I want to clear something up.

Adam is right, seventh grade is seventh grade. But, depending on the set up of the grade system in the school, and the makeup of the teams, some seventh graders can be much better prepared for organized basketball than other seventh graders.

It looks like JRutledge attended a junior school with grades similar to what I attended back in the 1960's, and used to teach at, and coach at, up until about twenty years ago. Junior high was grade seven, eight and nine.

Back then it was very difficult for a seventh grader to make a junior high team with eighth, and ninth, graders trying out. If there was a seventh grader on my junior high school team, and I don't recall more than one, or two, he was probably a very talented seventh grader.

Now, here in Connecticut, all ninth graders are in high school settings, no more junior high schools, instead we have middle schools of sixth, seventh, and eighth graders.

The seventh graders that I was referring to may, or may not, be anything like the seventh graders in the original post. The kids that I was talking about attend Catholic middle schools. These schools have a very competitive "varsity" teams that consist of mostly eighth graders, and talented seventh graders. The less talented seventh graders play on the "junior varsity" team, playing in a league that combines both competition, and instruction. If you're a seventh grader on a "junior varsity" team, then you probably are not very good, because, if you were, you would probably be on the "varsity" team.

These are the seventh graders that I was talking about, some of them playing organized, competitive, basketball for the first time, and often being confused about some of the simplest rules, especially with the pressure of fans, coaches, officials, a scoreboard, etc., especially in the first weeks of the season.

Semantics. And "varsity" is still a silly term for middle school basketball of any level.

The Road Not Taken (Robert Frost) ...
 

We've been down this road before. Please, let's not go down that road again, at least for today. Don't make me pull out my Funk & Wagnalls.

OK, but this is not about what I attended over 20 years ago. The current school system calls the school that has 7th graders a Junior High.

I cannot speak for you. But most 7th graders are not competing against 9th graders in my experience. When I was that age there was a 7th grade team and an 8th grade team. Ninth graders were Freshman and had their own team at the separate high school building.

I attended Richardson Junior High as a 9th grader for a semester in the Dallas, Texas area and it was next door to Richardson Senior High which held 10th-12th graders. Not sure if that is still the case, but the 9th graders player on our own age group. We did not compete with lower levels in any sport as I remember it.

I am starting to understand why we have so many D1 and pro players that come from this state if that is the case. When I started officiating in 1996, 5th and 6th grade basketball was common for school programs. And that does not include the travel or rec. leagues kids might have played in before.

Peace

Travelin' Man, Ricky Nelson, 1961 ...
 

I have no idea what travel basketball is like in your area, but around these parts, travel basketball is a really big deal, with dozens, and dozens, of kids from the entire town trying out for about a dozen spots. The kids that make the team end up being the crème-de-la-crème, and are very, very talented.

Seventh graders on a Catholic middle school "junior varsity" team, are those that did not make the "varsity" team, and are certainly not the crème-de-la-crème, and again, these are the deer in the headlights kids. This is why I had a slight problem with Adam's, "7th grade is 7th grade". They all aren't the same. If the seventh graders on our town travel team were to play the local Catholic middle school "junior varsity" team of seventh graders (remember the best seventh graders moved up to the "varsity"), the score would end up being about 112 to 6 (Believe me, I know, I've worked scrimmages). It may not be apples to oranges, but it's Delicious apples to Macintosh apples.

What's So Special About Rome ???
 

Can't argue with that, especially with a casebook play to back you up. Once again, its a matter of "When in Rome ...".

Does this, "When in Rome ...", stuff work in other sports like it seems to work in basketball?

Yes, except in Rome. :)

Yep, some 7th graders are better than others. I never said otherwise. I only said whether you call their school a junior high or a middle school is completely irrelevant. What makes a difference is how much basketball they've played up to that point.

Everyone has a travel team. And at that age just about anyone that wants to play can find a team somewhere.

Billy like anything in life, there are always different levels. Not all high school players are at the same level of competence and I do not think many people decide to call the game that drastically different.

Peace

We Have A Winner ...
 

Bingo. Give the man a cigar. Keep in mind that sometimes the degree of experience is not completely controlled by the individual, but rather, the "system" that the individual participates in. Unlike the old adage, sometimes opportunity is persistent, and knocks several times, and sometimes it doesn't knock at all, it just passes right by your house.

Not true here in my hometown of 40,000 people. We have one travel team for each grade, six, seven, and eight. If a player doesn't make that team, then he's relegated to playing recreation basketball, where the competition is not as good as the travel program, as is the strength of schedule, the amount of practice time, and the quality of coaching.

You are absolutely correct. Most of us don't.

But once you venture down to officiate games between pre-teen gym rats, then you can, or can't, adjust to the talent, and experience, of that team, league, or individual, as well as the expectations of that league. I've been working this Catholic middle school "junior varsity" league for over twenty-five years, and I know exactly what's expected of me. If I call a do-over in the original post, especially if it's early in the season, early in the game, and with a confused player, I'm 100% positive that my assigner, all my partners, the league president, both coaches, the principal, and all the fans wouldn't blink an eye. In fact, I'm certain that my assigner, and the league president, are pleased with the job that I do, as I am usually selected to officiate league playoffs, and have worked state, and New England, tournaments at this level.

Agree. And some of us adjust, or are allowed, or even encouraged, to adjust, and some of us don't adjust, or are not allowed to adjust, or are discouraged from adjusting. It all depends on the individual official, as well as the expectations of the assigner, and the league.

All I am saying is what rule we are talking about is not hard for the players to understand and if called the sky is not going to fall for these kids. This is not like trying to determine a kid travels because he can barely get his arms around the basketball. I am all about adjusting to the level, but this rule we are talking about does not need that much adjustment IMO.

Peace

Stalemate ???
 

JRutledge: Several Forum members tend to disagree with you (and several agree with you). Let's agree to disagree, and go back to our corners and handle it the way our assigners wants it done.

I'm probably somewhere in the middle between you two, but...

And, with that....