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BillyMac Sat Aug 24, 2013 09:55am
Disconcertion From The Bench
 
NFHS: Possible disconcertion violation of a free throw, even if the clapping came from the bench.

Note: I did not start this thread. It's been pulled, fairly, from another thread that included a lengthy, but professional, debate.

"I love the smell of a debate in the morning." (with apologies to Lieutenant Colonel Bill Kilgore, Apocalypse Now)

Freddy Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:08am
Depends on the Definition of "Is", I Guess
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 903276)
NFHS: Possible disconcertion violation of a free throw, even if the clapping came from the bench.
Still an open question for me.
9-3c does say, "No opponent shall disconcert the free thrower." However, at camp a couple of years ago I did call disconcertion on the players on the bench for, after a warning on the first FT, continued to yell at the FT'er during his second FT. Was roundly criticized by clinician whose opinion meshed with the consensus on this forum: that disconcertion applies regarding players on the floor; unsporting T (perhaps after a warning) would be the only fitting penalty that could be called against those on the bench.
Given the wording of the rule, I do not agree with my clinician and with the consensus on this forum, so I guess I'm leaving it, for now, as an open question awaiting definitive resolution.

BktBallRef Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 903294)
Was roundly criticized by clinician whose opinion meshed with the consensus on this forum....

Given the wording of the rule, I do not agree with my clinician and with the consensus on this forum,.....
Why do you think it's the consensus?

My experience is that camps are always more focused on philosophy than rules.

Zoochy Sat Aug 24, 2013 07:57pm
I had a partner call disconcerting on Cheerleaders.
That went over well :-P

Raymond Sat Aug 24, 2013 08:43pm
What's the rule book say?

BillyMac Sun Aug 25, 2013 05:36am
Opponent ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 903371)
What's the rule book say?
Let's go to the videotape (Warner Wolf):

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 903294)
9-3c does say, "No opponent shall disconcert the free thrower." .

stripes Sun Aug 25, 2013 09:24pm
This is not golf.

Noise is part of the game.

I would be VERY JUDICIOUS in calling disconcertion on bench personnel.

Every time this topic comes up, the first thought that crosses my mind is "why would an official look for trouble?" IMO, calling disconcertion is looking for trouble that is not there.

Flame on...

Adam Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stripes (Post 903484)
This is not golf.

Noise is part of the game.

I would be VERY JUDICIOUS in calling disconcertion on bench personnel.

Every time this topic comes up, the first thought that crosses my mind is "why would an official look for trouble?" IMO, calling disconcertion is looking for trouble that is not there.

Flame on...
No flames. I agree. In order for me to even address it, it's going to have to be an obviously concerted effort; such as a chant or stomp.

BillyMac Mon Aug 26, 2013 06:13am
As Rare As A Nun In A Bikini ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by stripes (Post 903484)
I would be VERY JUDICIOUS in calling disconcertion on bench personnel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam (Post 903487)
In order for me to even address it, it's going to have to be an obviously concerted effort; such as a chant or stomp.
For me, once in thirty-two seasons, and that was in a boys high school recreation game. How's that for judicious? If I were to call this in a high school varsity game, it would probably involve some type of warning before I go to the "nuclear" option, although, if I ever came across it, the entire bench yelling "Miss. Miss. Miss ... ", at the top of their lungs would probably not get that warning, just the arm, and fist, parallel to the floor. Some might probably call this unsporting, but that's another story, for another time. Goodnight moon.

Rob1968 Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam (Post 903487)
No flames. I agree. In order for me to even address it, it's going to have to be an obviously concerted effort; such as a chant or stomp.
GV game, a few years ago: 1st half - during 1st of 2 FT's - bench players: "stomp, stomp, clap, clap, "Miss it! Miss it!" and repeated . . .
Delayed violation signal, and shooter made the 1st shot. We then informed the coach that the choreographed actions would not be tolerated, and could be considered unsporting. She asked if they couldn't say anything during the shots.
We replied that the issue was the choreography, and as long as the verbiage and comments were not out-of-line, they could feel free to express themselves. She and her players seemed to understand, and we had no further incidents.

Rufus Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stripes (Post 903484)
This is not golf.

Noise is part of the game.
If you're talking about the crowd making noise I'm in complete agreement. Players, either on the court or on the bench, are not part of the crowd however (i.e., they didn't pay admission to get into the gym).

That being said, I agree that they would have to do something pretty outrageous to get me thinking about calling disconcertion.

mtn335 Mon Aug 26, 2013 01:48pm
What about band/cheerleaders? They're in that in-between-place of not being members of the crowd, but not being participants.

I had a situation season before last where an idiot drummer in the band kept absently playing rudiments on the floor or on his snare drum while the ball was live. I've been to this school many times and have a good relationship with the AD and table personnel, so I quietly asked that the band folks be reminded about the rule.

It mostly stopped, but at one point (intentionally or otherwise) in the second half, this kid hit his drum right as a visiting player was starting her free-throw motion. Her head visibly jerked toward the sound, and the free throw missed badly.

I awarded a replacement. Covered by rule? Uh, questionable. Fair? Well, I thought so...

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Mon Aug 26, 2013 02:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 903395)
Let's go to the videotape (Warner Wolf):


Billy:

I miss Warner Wolfe. I guess we are showing our age with a Warner Wolfe reference.

MTD, Sr.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Mon Aug 26, 2013 03:36pm
Rather giving my two cents, I am going to give my $100 presentation is short form.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 903294)
Still an open question for me.
9-3c does say, "No opponent shall disconcert the free thrower." However, at camp a couple of years ago I did call disconcertion on the players on the bench for, after a warning on the first FT, continued to yell at the FT'er during his second FT. Was roundly criticized by clinician whose opinion meshed with the consensus on this forum: that disconcertion applies regarding players on the floor; unsporting T (perhaps after a warning) would be the only fitting penalty that could be called against those on the bench.
Given the wording of the rule, I do not agree with my clinician and with the consensus on this forum, so I guess I'm leaving it, for now, as an open question awaiting definitive resolution.

Freddy:

I am going to piggy back onto you post because brings of some of the points I am going to discuss.


First: Short Form!! That will happen when the Sun rises in the West.


Second:

This is the first time that this subject has been discussed in the Basketball Forum in at least five years if I am not mistaken.


Third: Do not even consider cheerleaders and fans when applying this rule.


Fourth: I am going to be up front with my positions:

1) Opponent in the context of the Disconcertion Rule (NFHS and NCAA Men's/Women's) that the rule applies to the five defensive players on the court; it does NOT apply to Bench Personnel.

2) The word Opponent has never been defined in the Rules. That means it allows us to have this discussion.

3) Disconcertion Action is a Violation and NFHS Rule 4, Section 46, Articles 1, 2, and 3 define the three Types of Violations and references Rule 9 for further definitions of Violations. NCAA Rule 4, Section 77 references Rule 9 for definitions of Violations; Rule 9 does not break down violations into Types 1, 2, and 3 (see NFHS) but does define Floor Violations (See NFHS Type 1).


I agree with the clinicians at the camp you attended. I believe that unsportsmanlike conduct from the bench has to be punished and that yelling at the FT Shooter falls within in the definition of unsportsmanlike conduct. That said, I am not consistent in my application of the rule.

No matter what the level of competition, if the violation is committed by someone other than the substitutes, the penalty will be a TF.

When it comes to the violation being committed by a substitute the level of competition definitely determines what I decide the infraction I call: Violation or TF.

At this point I should state that I always try to use preventative officiating whenever possible so as to avoid TF situations.

Regarding infractions by subs: H.S. level and above, almost always will charge the offender with a TF. Jr. H.S. level and below: unless very egregious I will go with the violation at least the first time. The lower level competition is a good time for we officials to educate whenever possible.

End my $100 two cents opinion.

MTD, Sr.

BigT Mon Aug 26, 2013 03:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoochy (Post 903365)
i had a partner call disconcerting on cheerleaders.
That went over well :-p
roflmao

BigT Mon Aug 26, 2013 03:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigT (Post 903548)
roflmao
I knew a referee who was slapped on the butt by a cheerleader last year. That would have distracted me... what on earth did the cheerleader do to give this guy another shot?

BillyMac Mon Aug 26, 2013 04:55pm
The Answer Has Got To Be Up In Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.'s Attic ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 903547)
Do not even consider cheerleaders and fans when applying this rule.
Agree 100%.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 903547)
The word Opponent has never been defined in the Rules.
Technically, true, but lets look outside of Rule 4 for some help from the NFHS as to how they define opponents:

2011-12 POINTS OF EMPHASIS
1. SPORTING BEHAVIOR. The NFHS Basketball Rules Committee continues to be concerned about the following behaviors:
A. Pregame Situations. Teams entering the gymnasium prior to the contest should not run through the area occupied by
the opposing team or under the basket where opponents are warming up.

I doubt that the opponents are only the five players (this is my best evidence, the rest is borderline silly).

NFHS Common Symptoms of Concussion Include: Unsure of game, score or opponent.

I doubt that the possibly concussed player is going to say the name of one of the five players, probably going to say, "East Oshkosh", referring to the entire team.

NFHS Coaches Code of Ethics: The coach shall not scout opponents by any means other than those adopted by the league and/or state high school athletic association.

I doubt that the coach is only going to scout five players at a time, he will probably scout the entire team.

The citations above are, granted, quite weak, and kind of lame, but they are evidence that leads me to believe that the NFHS considers opponents to include the five players, and bench personnel.

While not defined in Rule 4, we can always go to a dictionary:

Opponent (Noun): a person who is on an opposing side in a game, contest, controversy, or the like; adversary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 903547)
Opponent in the context of the Disconcertion Rule (NFHS) that the rule applies to the five defensive players on the court; it does NOT apply to Bench Personnel.
You could be correct, but I've yet to see any evidence, rule reference, case play, or any other citation from anyone on the Forum, or anywhere else, that proves that bench personnel can't be opponents. Nor have I seen any similar evidence to the contrary, i.e., supporting my side of the debate, other than the evidence that I have cited above. Does weak evidence trump no evidence?

Let's add a little mustard, just to make things interesting.

How about the opposing coach on the bench disconcerting the free thrower? He's not a player, but he is part of the bench personnel. Is he an opponent? Could we go with a violation, or do we go directly to an unsporting technical foul?

Note: Thanks for letting Mark come out to play with us Mrs. DeNucci.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Mon Aug 26, 2013 05:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 903556)
Agree 100%.



Technically, true, but lets look outside of Rule 4 for some help from the NFHS as to how they define opponents:

2011-12 POINTS OF EMPHASIS
1. SPORTING BEHAVIOR. The NFHS Basketball Rules Committee continues to be concerned about the following behaviors:
A. Pregame Situations. Teams entering the gymnasium prior to the contest should not run through the area occupied by
the opposing team or under the basket where opponents are warming up.

I doubt that the opponents are only the five players (this is my best evidence, the rest is borderline silly).

NFHS Common Symptoms of Concussion Include: Unsure of game, score or opponent.

I doubt that the possibly concussed player is going to say the name of one of the five players, probably going to say, "East Oshkosh", referring to the entire team.

NFHS Coaches Code of Ethics: The coach shall not scout opponents by any means other than those adopted by the league and/or state high school athletic association.

I doubt that the coach is only going to scout five players at a time, he will probably scout the entire team.

The citations above are, granted, quite weak, and kind of lame, but they are evidence that leads me to believe that the NFHS considers opponents to include the five players, and bench personnel.

While not defined in Rule 4, we can always go to a dictionary:

Opponent (Noun): a person who is on an opposing side in a game, contest, controversy, or the like; adversary.



You could be correct, but I've yet to see any evidence, rule reference, case play, or any other citation from anyone on the Forum, or anywhere else, that proves that bench personnel can't be opponents. Nor have I seen any similar evidence to the contrary, i.e., supporting my side of the debate, other than the evidence that I have cited above. Does weak evidence trump no evidence?

Let's add a little mustard, just to make things interesting.

How about the opposing coach on the bench disconcerting the free thrower? He's not a player, but he is part of the bench personnel. Is he an opponent? Could we go with a violation, or do we go directly to an unsporting technical foul?

Note: Thanks for letting Mark come out to play with us Mrs. DeNucci.

Billy:

I want to thank you for adding valid points to the discussion. (I was too lazy to climb up into the attic to read them. :p) But you show how muddle the information is concerning this particular rule.

When pressed for a definitive interpretation, I will go with the interpretation that says Violation for the five defensive players on the court and TF for Bench Personnel. BUT I wouldn't get upset if an official only enforced a Violation on Bench Personnel if the infraction was not egregious. That is why I am more flexible with games played at the Jr. H.S. level and below.

Until the NFHS and NCAA Rules Committees define what is an opponent per the Disconcertion Rule, we will continue to have this discussion.

MTD, Sr.

Zoochy Mon Aug 26, 2013 05:45pm
Why do opposing coaches yell "Rebound" during a Free Throw? Sometimes it is on the 1st of 2 throws. No intent to disconcert there. :rolleyes:

BillyMac Mon Aug 26, 2013 05:59pm
Confused ??? Can't Count ???
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoochy (Post 903559)
Why do opposing coaches yell "Rebound" during a Free Throw ... Sometimes it is on the 1st of 2 throws.
Tourette's Syndrome?

stripes Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob1968 (Post 903515)
GV game, a few years ago: 1st half - during 1st of 2 FT's - bench players: "stomp, stomp, clap, clap, "Miss it! Miss it!" and repeated . . .
Delayed violation signal, and shooter made the 1st shot. We then informed the coach that the choreographed actions would not be tolerated, and could be considered unsporting. She asked if they couldn't say anything during the shots.
We replied that the issue was the choreography, and as long as the verbiage and comments were not out-of-line, they could feel free to express themselves. She and her players seemed to understand, and we had no further incidents.
For me this is an example of something I would not even bother addressing. I said it before, this is not golf...noise and distractions are part of the game...even from the bench. Don't look for trouble.

Adam Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by stripes (Post 903611)
For me this is an example of something I would not even bother addressing. I said it before, this is not golf...noise and distractions are part of the game...even from the bench. Don't look for trouble.
I'd have no problem addressing that situation.

1. It's bush league garbage. The coach should be embarassed to be doing it.
2. It's rare, so telling him to knock it off is easy.

BillyMac Tue Aug 27, 2013 04:12pm
Don't Look For Trouble Means That We Should Ignore It ???
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob1968 (Post 903515)
GV game, a few years ago: 1st half - during 1st of 2 FT's - bench players: "stomp, stomp, clap, clap, "Miss it! Miss it!" and repeated . . . Delayed violation signal, and shooter made the 1st shot. We then informed the coach that the choreographed actions would not be tolerated, and could be considered unsporting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stripes (Post 903611)
For me this is an example of something I would not even bother addressing ... noise and distractions are part of the game...even from the bench.
Wrong. It's unsporting, it's not part of the game of basketball, and it has to be addressed in some manner, maybe just a warning, maybe a disconcertion violation, or maybe the "nuclear" option of an unsporting technical foul. An official cannot ignore this type of behavior.

stripes Wed Aug 28, 2013 03:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 903657)
Wrong. It's unsporting, it's not part of the game of basketball, and it has to be addressed in some manner, maybe just a warning, maybe a disconcertion violation, or maybe the "nuclear" option of an unsporting technical foul. An official cannot ignore this type of behavior.
Totally disagree. Noise and distractions are part of the game. If you want to open that can of worms...be my guest. I see nothing wrong with what the bench personnel were described as doing. IMO, a FT shooter should be able tune out the things described and that makes them, once again, IMO, something to ignore.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Wed Aug 28, 2013 03:25pm
Stripes!! READ THIS NOW!!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by stripes (Post 903725)
Totally disagree. Noise and distractions are part of the game. If you want to open that can of worms...be my guest. I see nothing wrong with what the bench personnel were described as doing. IMO, a FT shooter should be able tune out the things described and that makes them, once again, IMO, something to ignore.

STRIPES: I AM GOING TO STOP THIS NONSENSE NOW!! THE BEHAVIOR BY BENCH PERSONNEL DESCRIBED IN A POST ABOVE IS ABSOLUTELY PROHIBITED BY RULE: IT IS UNSPORTSMANLIKE CONDUCT AND IF YOU DO NOT HAVE THE INTESTINAL FORTITUDE TO ENFORCE IT THEN GET THE HELL OUT OF THE BASKETBALL OFFICIATING PROFESSION! THERE IS NO DEFENSE THAT YOU CAN GIVE FOR FAILURE TO PENALIZE BENCH PERSONNEL FOR THIS TYPE OF CONDUCT! I CANNOT BELIEVE THAT YOU WOULD TAKE THE POSITION THAT THIS TYPE OF CONDUCT IS ALLOWED BY THE RULES!

MTD, Sr.

BillyMac Wed Aug 28, 2013 04:00pm
I Forgot, What Does A Red Font Mean ???
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 903726)
STRIPES: I AM GOING TO STOP THIS NONSENSE NOW!! THE BEHAVIOR BY BENCH PERSONNEL DESCRIBED IN A POST ABOVE IS ABSOLUTELY PROHIBITED BY RULE: IT IS UNSPORTSMANLIKE CONDUCT AND IF YOU DO NOT HAVE THE INTESTINAL FORTITUDE TO ENFORCE IT THEN GET THE HELL OUT OF THE BASKETBALL OFFICIATING PROFESSION! THERE IS NO DEFENSE THAT YOU CAN GIVE FOR FAILURE TO PENALIZE BENCH PERSONNEL FOR THIS TYPE OF CONDUCT! I CANNOT BELIEVE THAT YOU WOULD TAKE THE POSITION THAT THIS TYPE OF CONDUCT IS ALLOWED BY THE RULES!
C'mon Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Tell us what you really think. Don't be so wishy washy. Don't hold it in. Let it all out.

stripes Thu Aug 29, 2013 09:31am
MTD Please read this now!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 903726)
STRIPES: I AM GOING TO STOP THIS NONSENSE NOW!! THE BEHAVIOR BY BENCH PERSONNEL DESCRIBED IN A POST ABOVE IS ABSOLUTELY PROHIBITED BY RULE: IT IS UNSPORTSMANLIKE CONDUCT AND IF YOU DO NOT HAVE THE INTESTINAL FORTITUDE TO ENFORCE IT THEN GET THE HELL OUT OF THE BASKETBALL OFFICIATING PROFESSION! THERE IS NO DEFENSE THAT YOU CAN GIVE FOR FAILURE TO PENALIZE BENCH PERSONNEL FOR THIS TYPE OF CONDUCT! I CANNOT BELIEVE THAT YOU WOULD TAKE THE POSITION THAT THIS TYPE OF CONDUCT IS ALLOWED BY THE RULES!

MTD, Sr.
MTD, please stop shouting and get off your high horse. Don't try and patronize me by using bold font and capital letters. Shouting and high post counts don't make you right. Trying to tell me to leave officiating because you disagree with me is ludicrous. I don't know who died and made you the over-lord of officiating, but here is a news flash: you're not that guy. You don't know a thing about me, my officiating or my "intestinal fortitude." If you, or anyone else, wants to call things like this, I can't stop you, but what I end up doing in my games is cleaning up the mess from people doing things like this.

If you don't like my opinions, ignore them. I have found that easily done with you.

Smitty Thu Aug 29, 2013 09:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by stripes (Post 903774)
Trying to tell me to leave officiating because you disagree with me is ludicrous.
I have to agree with this. The response from MTD was way out of proportion with the issue.

MD Longhorn Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by stripes (Post 903774)
Shouting and high post counts don't make you right.
Correct. Being right is what makes him right.

Quote:
Trying to tell me to leave officiating because you disagree with me is ludicrous.
He was not telling you to leave because you disagree with each other. He was telling you that if you can't see this as an obvious thing you need to handle, then you don't have the intestinal fortitude to do this job. Thus, you should stop.

Quote:
You don't know a thing about me, my officiating or my "intestinal fortitude."
Bluntly, sir, yes we do ... based solely on your own comments.
Quote:
what I end up doing in my games is cleaning up the mess from people doing things like this.
Actually those who don't handle business like this make things more difficult on everyone else. I can't imagine a scenario where your predecessors handling this crap from the bench could possibly make things harder on someone unable to handle it on his own. The logic here makes no sense.

Quote:
If you don't like my opinions, ignore them. I have found that easily done with you.
Despite evidence to the contrary; exhibit A being this post.

JRutledge Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smitty (Post 903776)
I have to agree with this. The response from MTD was way out of proportion with the issue.
I agree, this is mostly a non-issue or something solved with a quick word. I do not think we need to make much more out of it then that.

Peace

Camron Rust Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smitty (Post 903776)
I have to agree with this. The response from MTD was way out of proportion with the issue.
Mark may have gone way overboard on it but he was right in that it shouldn't be ignored.

Adam Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stripes (Post 903774)
MTD, please stop shouting and get off your high horse. Don't try and patronize me by using bold font and capital letters. Shouting and high post counts don't make you right. Trying to tell me to leave officiating because you disagree with me is ludicrous. I don't know who died and made you the over-lord of officiating, but here is a news flash: you're not that guy. You don't know a thing about me, my officiating or my "intestinal fortitude." If you, or anyone else, wants to call things like this, I can't stop you, but what I end up doing in my games is cleaning up the mess from people doing things like this.

If you don't like my opinions, ignore them. I have found that easily done with you.
Regardless of how inappropriate MTD's response was, have to ask. What sort of mess are you cleaning up? 1. I've never had a bench pull crap like this. 2. I've never had a coach complain about the noise from other bench.

What mess are you talking about?

Adam Thu Aug 29, 2013 01:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stripes (Post 903725)
Totally disagree. Noise and distractions are part of the game. If you want to open that can of worms...be my guest. I see nothing wrong with what the bench personnel were described as doing. IMO, a FT shooter should be able tune out the things described and that makes them, once again, IMO, something to ignore.
Noise and distractions? Yes. Concerted chanting and stomping from the bench? Nope. Fans get to do all sorts of things coaches and players can't. This is no exception.

Smitty Thu Aug 29, 2013 01:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 903793)
Mark may have gone way overboard on it but he was right in that it shouldn't be ignored.
That's not what I said. His response was so ridiculously extreme that whatever message he might have been trying to send was lost in the exaggeration. Knowing when to subdue the bench is subjective and relative to the situation. If you have a packed gym where everyone in the stands is screaming and shouting during a free throw and the bench players are stomping their feet, are you going to stop everything and go tell the bench to knock it off? What is over the line may be different for one person as opposed to their partners as well.

BayStateRef Thu Aug 29, 2013 01:29pm
I understand "opponent" the way Billy does: anyone on the other team. The rules' writers would have said "players" if they wanted us to penalize only those on the floor.

I have called disconcertion on a coach...who yelled, precisely as the free throw shooter released the first of two free throws: "Box Out." I have also called it on a player, an inch on the north side of the 3-point line, who clapped and yelled "Rebound" at the precise moment that ball was released. We get to make judgments as to what is disconcertion. Absent any specific guidance (from the NFHS or from my assignor), I applied the rule as I understood it.

I do not agree this is a technical foul for unsporting conduct. The disconcertion rule fits perfectly here. There is no need to look for any other penalty.

Adam Thu Aug 29, 2013 01:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BayStateRef (Post 903807)
I understand "opponent" the way Billy does: anyone on the other team. The rules' writers would have said "players" if they wanted us to penalize only those on the floor.

I have called disconcertion on a coach...who yelled, precisely as the free throw shooter released the first of two free throws: "Box Out." I have also called it on a player, an inch on the north side of the 3-point line, who clapped and yelled "Rebound" at the precise moment that ball was released. We get to make judgments as to what is disconcertion. Absent any specific guidance (from the NFHS or from my assignor), I applied the rule as I understood it.

I do not agree this is a technical foul for unsporting conduct. The disconcertion rule fits perfectly here. There is no need to look for any other penalty.
While I agree with you, I don't agree with your "the rules' writers would have said 'players'" point. I don't share your confidence in their skills.

MD Longhorn Thu Aug 29, 2013 01:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smitty (Post 903806)
That's not what I said. His response was so ridiculously extreme that whatever message he might have been trying to send was lost in the exaggeration. Knowing when to subdue the bench is subjective and relative to the situation. If you have a packed gym where everyone in the stands is screaming and shouting during a free throw and the bench players are stomping their feet, are you going to stop everything and go tell the bench to knock it off? What is over the line may be different for one person as opposed to their partners as well.
I agree his response was rather extreme. However, I believe he tried talking some sense into him without that extreme response several times.

It's like when I say something to my child, 3-4 times in increasing volume until the final time I'm yelling and they say, "Why are you YELLING?!?!" Um .. because normal volume wasn't working!

Smitty Thu Aug 29, 2013 01:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 903810)
I believe he tried talking some sense into you without that extreme response several times.
Wasn't me. I was just defending his point (the guy who was the target of the red yelling).

MD Longhorn Thu Aug 29, 2013 02:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smitty (Post 903811)
Wasn't me. I was just defending his point (the guy who was the target of the red yelling).
True. My bad. I've corrected my post.

rockyroad Thu Aug 29, 2013 03:43pm
Have to agree with Smitty. Taking a very small issue and telling someone to get out of officiating if they can't handle it "right" is way, way, way over the top.

BillyMac Thu Aug 29, 2013 04:55pm
Ignoring ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by stripes (Post 903725)
Something to ignore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 903791)
Something solved with a quick word. I do not think we need to make much more out of it then that.
Agree 100% with JRutledge. "A quick word" is not ignoring.

BillyMac Thu Aug 29, 2013 04:58pm
Simple, Rational, To The Point ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 903779)
Being right is what makes him right.
If I haven't already done it this week, I'm nominating this for Post O' The Week.

BillyMac Thu Aug 29, 2013 05:02pm
Editors Edit ???
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam (Post 903808)
I don't share your confidence in their skills.
... nor the skills of the rules editor.

bob jenkins Thu Aug 29, 2013 08:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 903834)
Agree 100% with JRutledge. "A quick word" is not ignoring.
Put me in this camp too. and, while MTD was "over the top", I understand how he got there.

RookieDude Fri Aug 30, 2013 03:06am
Thanks a lot guys...now I might pay attention to something that might not need much attention.

You know...kind of like that song you just can't get out of your head. ;)

I honestly can not think of a time when the bench has disconcerted a free thrower...but then again, I don't do girls games. :D

dsqrddgd909 Fri Aug 30, 2013 08:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RookieDude (Post 903857)
Thanks a lot guys...now I might pay attention to something that might not need much attention.

You know...kind of like that song you just can't get out of your head. ;)

I honestly can not think of a time when the bench has disconcerted a free thrower...but then again, I don't do girls games. :D
Stayed out of this discussion until now.

Youth tournament last winter, Boys, 6th grade I think.

Large gym, not many people. Two average teams. 1st half (18 minute running clock) visiting team bench suddenly gets coughing / sneezing fits at the exact moment Home team free thrower starts to shoot. I ignored it at first, then warned coach, then for whatever reason just ignored it after that. :confused: They kept it up the rest of the game.

End of the game, Home team will not shake hands with visitors. Coach said "I will not reward poor sportsmanship."

No hand shakes between teams becomes issue with the fans after the game, leading to yelling, finger pointing and me watching to see if it would escalate. No game management present as this is a multi-facility tournament and we are one of the satellite gyms.

I had to submit a report to tournament director.

All of this because I would not enforce the rule. :o

bob jenkins Fri Aug 30, 2013 08:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RookieDude (Post 903857)
Thanks a lot guys...now I might pay attention to something that might not need much attention.

You know...kind of like that song you just can't get out of your head. ;)

I honestly can not think of a time when the bench has disconcerted a free thrower...but then again, I don't do girls games. :D
The only times it's happened to me (taken care of with a comment to the bench) have been boys games.

Adam Fri Aug 30, 2013 08:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsqrddgd909 (Post 903868)
No game management present as this is a multi-facility tournament and we are one of the satellite gyms.
There's your second problem. :)

I won't work those anymore.

Rob1968 Fri Aug 30, 2013 09:13am
I've stayed out of the conversation, since I posted the scenario that has fueled so much of this discussion:
The reason that my partner and I talked with the coach was not so much because of possible disconcertion of the shooter. We have an obligation to the entire organization - high schools' athletic assn, officials assn, NFHS - to be cognizant of the sportsmanship aspect. (I'm the strange guy who actually memorized and repeats the NFHS Sportsmanship statement at captains meetings, before games).
The actions we addressed, in another setting - wreck league, pick-up game, etc. - might not be anything except comic relief. However, being responsible, as I understand it, to do our part on behalf of all who we, as officials represent and to whom we report, I'm comfortable with how my partner and I addressed the situation.

rockyroad Fri Aug 30, 2013 11:38am
For the record, I would tell the coach to have his bench stop...but I would never tell another official to get out of officiating over this minor of an issue.

JRutledge Fri Aug 30, 2013 12:27pm
I think we as officials spend too much time worrying about what others do or do not do. Officiating is a personal event where you are assigned a game and have to do what your bosses tell you. If someone else does not follow a procedure, ultimately that is not our problem. And just like everything in life, one situation is not like another situation. I do not see this situation as a big deal and I have never seen a situation where a bench was so over the top that I could not tell them to stop and then they stop. And I cannot remember the last time something like this even happened in a game because I believe most coaches would think it was bush league and not advocate such a thing. And if the crew before me let it go and I do not in the next game, I do not really care. My concern is what we do as a crew that night.

Peace

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Fri Aug 30, 2013 03:02pm
Apology
 
I will be 62 years young in November 2013, and after 42 years of officiating basketball every once in awhile I get riled up over something that really can burn my tuchus, and I let Stripes' position and attitude of Bench Personnel in this situation get the better of my good judgement. My response was over the top and was not appropriate from an official of my background and as an Administrator of this Forum.

I apologize to everyone who read it and was offended by it.

MTD, Sr.


P.S. The chosen font size is to to emphasis the important parts and the not important parts of my post.

Camron Rust Fri Aug 30, 2013 03:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smitty (Post 903776)
I have to agree with this. The response from MTD was way out of proportion with the issue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smitty (Post 903806)
That's not what I said. His response was so ridiculously extreme that whatever message he might have been trying to send was lost in the exaggeration. Knowing when to subdue the bench is subjective and relative to the situation. If you have a packed gym where everyone in the stands is screaming and shouting during a free throw and the bench players are stomping their feet, are you going to stop everything and go tell the bench to knock it off? What is over the line may be different for one person as opposed to their partners as well.

Agree...my response wasn't so much to you, more in general. Yours was just a convenient place to jump in.

stripes Fri Aug 30, 2013 03:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 903907)
I will be 62 years young in November 2013, and after 42 years of officiating basketball every once in awhile I get riled up over something that really can burn my tuchus, and I let Stripes' position and attitude of Bench Personnel in this situation get the better of my good judgement. My response was over the top and was not appropriate from an official of my background and as an Administrator of this Forum.

I apologize to everyone who read it and was offended by it.

MTD, Sr.


P.S. The chosen font size is to to emphasis the important parts and the not important parts of my post.
Apology accepted.

As I re-read the thread, I did not express my thoughts very well. I should not have said to ignore the actions, but I would not call disconcertion. Much like JRut, I would give the coach a quick word and get it handled. Don't make the bench's actions a bigger deal than it is.

Raymond Fri Aug 30, 2013 08:41pm
Ahhh, how precious.


Now everybody shut up.

rockyroad Sat Aug 31, 2013 12:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 903937)
Ahhh, how precious.


Now everybody shut up.
That's more like it!!

Freddy Sat Aug 31, 2013 08:55am
Well, That's Over
 
A warm and fuzzy "Qum Ba Ya" moment to enter the holiday weekend. Nice. :)

BillyMac Sat Aug 31, 2013 10:38am
Campfire, Smores, Ghost Stories ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 903967)
A warm and fuzzy "Qum Ba Ya" moment to enter the holiday weekend. Nice.
How come I didn't get to sing "Qum Ba Ya" the past two weekends?

I could post a video here but I want to stay on the good side of the moderators, so I won't.

Jim Henry Fri Sep 20, 2013 03:02pm
I never allow opponents to stomp feet, chant or make other noise during a foul shot. When I hear it I warn the coach. That's all it takes and they stop. Only seen it at grade or junior high games. Sometimes I question though when I hear the coach or players shout to their teammates, "Who's got shooter!?!" right when the shooter is taking the shot. But I ignore it. I don't see it as disconcertion from the bench. I always ignore cheerleaders and fans who make noise during free throws.

Adam Fri Sep 20, 2013 04:33pm
If the defense is loudly asking "who's got shooter" just prior to a shot, before I bounce the ball for the next shot, I'll ask, "Who's got shooter?"
The one who has the shooter will identify himself, and the kids get my point.


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