Rebounding Contact (video)
 

Thoughts? My initial ones concerned positioning and "How late is too late?"

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Looks like a foul to me. The guy in white pulls down the guy in blue.

Peace

Yeah, that was quit a bit late...I'm guessing he didn't even call a foul but stopped play for an injury????

That needs to be a foul long before that whistle. That is enough contact that possession consequence is no longer a factor.

It looks like no foul was called. It does look like they only stopped play for the injury situation.

Peace

Imagine All The People Living Life In Peace (John Lennon) ...
 

Foul. And, of course, we wouldn't report it to the table as, "Over the back".

With apologies to John Lennon: Imagine if blue hadn't kept possession after the contact, and fall to the floor, by the blue player? Imagine if the ball had gone out of bounds off the falling blue player? Imagine, if somehow, white had come up with the offensive rebound, and worse, an easy put back "bunny? Imagine the officials standing there with the whistles still in their mouths. Imagine the blue coach getting a technical foul, or worse, getting tossed.

By the way...
 

I should have mentioned in the OP...no foul was called. The whistle was due to the injury.

This fell into the "elephant" category for me. I can kind of see why the L didn't call it since he was too close. The only reason I can think of why the T didn't call it was he must've figured "Well, Blue is going to get the ball anyway..."

Felony or elephant, it would have helped if the L had backed out from closedown once the shot went up. Also would have helped if the C was anywhere near where he was supposed to be.

You're being way too generous to the Lead, he simply missed a foul in his primary.

Yeah, I know. Of course, the T could have helped. A lot.


Check out the movement of the crew as the shot goes up. The C is backing out and the T is moving down. They both anticipated a rotation that never came. At the 6:40 mark the C was in the A position then he started closing down. He made it to B then stopped but the other guys kept moving. The movement really put the T in a great spot but he just missed it.

The C has no business backing out anticipating a rotation. He should have stayed put officiate the shot then closed down to help with rebounding.

He Who Hesitates Is Not Only Lost, But Is Miles From The Next Exit ...
 

I'm not at all familiar with three person mechanics, but I can try to put a two person spin on this (I'm what you call, an expert, in two person mechanics, officiating here in the Land That Time Forgot).

Like BadNewsRef stated, the Lead blew his call. Period. Now, if I'm the Trail here, even knowing the difference between an ant, and an elephant, I'm probably going to hesitate for a split second because it's a call outside of my primary, and I'm probably thinking, "Why did the Lead pass on this play?". There are a lot of different animals along the animal spectrum between an ant, and an elephant. Maybe it was an American Bittern, for example? Maybe that hesitation is a little more than a spit second, and now I'm wondering if it's going to be a late whistle, even though I normally roll with a late whistle being a much better alternative than no whistle. While all this is being processed in my brain (my dendrites, axons, and synapses, don't fire as quickly as they used to), I spot the blue player with the ball, and now I'm thinking, "Good, we caught a break", and, as JetMetFan stated earlier, I pass on the play.

Later, during a break, I'm probably politely asking my partner what he saw on that rebounding play where the blue player fell to the floor. Any observers at the game will ask both of us the same question, and as the proverbs say, we hesitated, and now, we're lost, lost up a creek, without our paddles.

If in 2-person, and I'm the T when the C was, and I see it similar to the angle in the video, I give the L a chance to grab it, and if he doesn't, I will. If I'm in the position of the T in the video, I definitely grab this one.

If in 3-person, someone has to get it. Being a strong T means you grab this before bailing. The C can pick it up too. I do think the L was too close.

I agree. I thought the T gave up on the play too quickly. He starts moving down court too soon, IMO. From the time the shot goes up, his only movement is away from the play.

Fight It, Fight It, Fight It ...
 

Here in two person Connecticut, we are taught, from the crib, as the trail, to always take a step toward the basket on a shot. As one gracefully ages, and loses a few steps (adds a few pounds, and gets more gray hair, not that I would know anything about any of those things), one becomes inclined to take a step back on the shot to get ahead of the next play, assuming a rebound, and a transition, down to the other end of the court. We (I don't now why I used the first person, plural personal pronoun here) have to constantly fight that urge.

I need to correct myself: both the C and the T were backing out when the shot went up/while the ball was in the air. There was also an "area of intersection" moment on the shot since both the C and the T went up with the three-point attempt signal. It was shot from the T's primary but given the previous pass came from the C's primary I'd like to think the T would've been off ball and left that one alone.

Of course, the fact the C had dropped back into a trail position when the action got in front of him didn't help at all.

...I noticed you have a religous reference in your signature...maybe it has something to do with that?

Trinity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This has nothing to do with age, instead it comes from a lack of training and/or discipline. Needs to be one of the basics instilled into new officials.

Agreed, and it's a little painful to see it in a college game.

Absolutely drives me crazy when I'm watching a game on TV.

The main thing I have a problem with mechanically is that both officials go up for a 3 point shot (signal). That tells me either both are watching the ball or likely watching the same thing. Also the C is very high on this play and should have closed down. Almost the entire purpose to have a C is so that another official is there to rule on rebounding. On the other hand, I do not have as much problem for when the T left as he stayed until it was evident that the rebound was mostly over. That being if the T stayed a little longer he might have seen this play better and helped. But this is the reason I feel we as officials need to get away from the idea that the L cannot call rebounding fouls. The L should have been the main person to make this call.

Peace

Bingo! We train our new guys (and all the old guys that want to keep their place on the pecking order) to take a "step in" on a shot (so even if they don't actually take a "step in"...at least they are not "bailing out")

...also, the "C" or "T", depending on 2 or 3 Whistle crew...should take a step in on the last Free Throw. The next time you watch a game...see how many officials actually use this mechanic.

Not a lot. And it usually is because we think we are going to get beat and we do not hang around long enough. I see it all summer in camps with even the most experienced officials.

Peace

Misty Water Color Memories ...
 

... because it's the most experienced officials who are older, a step slower, with a few more gray hairs, or a few less hairs. The young'uns hold their spot as the trail on a shot, even move in a step to get a good look at the rebounding action, and then know that they can beat the kids down to the endline on other end of the court. I used to be that fast many years ago. Now I find myself often doing a button hook maneuver to get a good look at fast break action down the other end. But, at least, I still try to take a step in, as the trail, on a shot, either a field goal, or a free throw. When I can't do that anymore, then it's probably time to hang up my Reebok Zigs.

Urges Don't Have To Be Acted On, They Can Be Fought, And Suppressed ...
 

You must have missed this part:

Ratings, Ranking, Games, Level Of Games ...
 

Same thing here in my little corner of Connecticut. It's a criticism that we varsity officials often mention to the subvarsity guys, and the same criticism will often show up on written evaluations of varsity officials by other varsity officials.

No, I addressed with the bolded part:

Once it's taught the officials need to use it. I've found that really has nothing to do with the age of officials.

As stated, this has nothing to do with grey hair or age of the officials. I know very young officials that do the same thing and bail on shots and still get beat. If you are trained enough in 3 person, you will get beat and that is OK. And it is not because of how fast you are, but if you are doing the right things there will get beat on a fast break you just will not completely anticipate and the players are going to have a head start on you. I am certainly not slow and I accept the fact with my training I will get beat from time to time. The rebound is just more important then being ahead of a couple of players for a moment.

Peace

The Prostate Of A Teenage Boy, But ...
 

I've found otherwise, although age may be only one of a few factors. When officials get slower, due to age, joint, and muscle problems, weight gain, out of shape, lack of conditioning during the offseason, etc., they lose a step and can adjust in either one of two ways. One way is to bail out early on shots down one end to get a head start back to the other end of the court. The other way is to hang in there, as the trail on a shot, watching for rebounding action, and realize that they may not make it all the way back down to the endline in front of the players, and may have to use their experience to fight for a position, and a good look, from somewhere else other than the endline to catch the action in a fast break situation. Here in my little corner of Connecticut, we prefer that slower officials hang in there on a shot, and use their experience to get a good angle down the other end if they can't make it to the endline.

In my case, I admit, that I'm not the same weight that I was thirty-two years ago, but I haven't gained any appreciable weight in the past fifteen years. I still run on weekends in the off season, just like I've been doing the past thirty-plus years. I've even added a little bicycle riding, and paddling a kayak, to my workout routine. So why have I lost a few steps over the past fifteen years? Age, and the muscle, and joint, problems that have come with age, and a lifetime of running, tennis, bicycling, basketball, football, baseball, hockey, etc. My latest problem is patellofemoral pain syndrome. This may eventually do me in, I can't walk down a flight of stairs without some degree of pain. At this point, luckily, I can still run with no pain, but after I run is when the pain kicks in. My doctor says that it's an age related, overuse injury, that I have the knees of a ninety-nine year old man.

So age, and age related problems, are certainly part of the problem, not the entire problem, but a part of the problem. Now that I'm slower, I constantly have to fight the urge to bail out and get back early, an urge that I never had fifteen years ago. I can fight that urge, some can't.

Good Training ...
 

Well said. Which is exactly how we train all of our officials, young, old, experienced, and inexperienced.

Agreed. Best statement I heard regarding this type of situation: "Officiate what's in front of you, not what you think will happen."

+1,000

The lead is eight feet away from obvious, heavy contact. He's not straightlined and is looking right at it, as evidenced by the last :10 of the video which reveal his position and body orientation. Outright brain cramp on the part of L on this play.

But I also agree with those wanting T to close and help - and with the idea that C is in horrible position to save the crew on an obvious foul.

This may have been a case of "Possession Consequence" carried too far.

I do but it took me a good 1 and a half to 2 whole seasons focusing on it every game to get it down so that I do it 95% of the time. The times I don't are when I get distracted by something weird or a coach or something else. Point is: it can be a hard habit to make or break but is doable and I think, as you all have mentioned very important to officiate the here and now and not the what might be.

Positioning fundamentals! A high center and too far off the floor IMO, and the L should definitely be backing out as the shot goes up. L should have primary call on this play with T having secondary. If C is in the correct position, and neither the L or T has a whistle, than a cadence whistle from the C. That Blue player got rocked!

No Harm, No Change Of Possession, Thus, No Foul ...
 

Back when I was a young official, with dark hair, this was a common unwritten philosophy among veteran officials here in my little corner of the Constitution State, i.e., "blue fouls white going for a rebound, but the ball immediately goes out of bounds off blue, just give it to white for an inbounds, no harm, no change of possession, no foul". I almost got caught up in this philosophy, but I've seen the light, and now just call the game like I'm supposed to, especially with every single play being filmed by dozens of cell phones in the bleachers. If it's a real foul, I call it. If it isn't, I don't call it, and just award the ball out of bounds for a throw in. The foul, or no foul, is called like I would if the ball never went out of bounds. The ball going out of bounds, off either blue, or off white, isn't part of the equation.

Some might still use this philosophy, so check your local listings in Rome.

We use it here, but as Camron noted, this would be taking it too far. It's used on contact that is close to the edge between illegal and incidental. If A1 bumps into B1 and displaces him slightly, but B1 maintains control of the ball, there's really no foul to call (and most coaches here accept that).

If, however, A1 knocks B1 to the floor while A2 comes in to pick up the loose ball, that should be a foul. This is how you end up with extra-curricular activity later in the game, IMO.

Politically Correct ...
 

Adam: I just love your funny little euphemisms.